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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 136 of 414 (551764)
03-24-2010 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
03-23-2010 9:58 PM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
Capt writes:

Just because your world revolves around your belief in an imaginary friend doesn't mean my world revolves around my lack of belief in same.

Hyro writes:

Well, that may or may not be true for you, but hang around the forum a while and you will see just how detached some of the resident atheists are with their unbelief.

This is a Creation vs Evolution discussion board if you hadn't noticed. So...

1) Selection effect???

2) Do you criticise those at a gym for their world apparently revolving around exercise?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-23-2010 9:58 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-24-2010 7:02 AM cavediver has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 137 of 414 (551781)
03-24-2010 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by cavediver
03-24-2010 4:12 AM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
This is a Creation vs Evolution discussion board if you hadn't noticed. So...

1) Selection effect???

2) Do you criticise those at a gym for their world apparently revolving around exercise?

This place, IMO, is a place to come in as a hobby. If anyone takes this place that seriously by ever referring to it as "their world," they therefore subject themselves to open scorn and public mockery.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by cavediver, posted 03-24-2010 4:12 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 7:38 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 145 by cavediver, posted 03-24-2010 2:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1990 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


(3)
Message 138 of 414 (551784)
03-24-2010 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Hyroglyphx
03-24-2010 7:02 AM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
If anyone takes this place that seriously by ever referring to it as "their world," they therefore subject themselves to open scorn and public mockery.

As do those demonstrating a severe failure of reading comprehension in not understanding that the most important word in understanding what that quote actually means is 'apparently'.

As G_d suggests, when you come to a site which people choose to frequent because their hobby is discussing evolution/creation, religion/materialism, theism/atheism then you are likely to find people from the more extreme fringes of adherence to each position, because the moderates who don't really feel they have a horse in the race wouldn't be bothered to find such a site in the first place. And this is only exacerbated since people are specifically going to be more focused on discussing these polarising topics.

If you think that that means that any atheist on this site, let alone most atheists, goes about their day to day life berating people for not embracing rationalism and denying the existence of the supernatural then maybe that says more about you than it does about them.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-24-2010 7:02 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-24-2010 9:00 AM Wounded King has not yet responded
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2010 12:15 PM Wounded King has responded
 Message 152 by 1.61803, posted 03-25-2010 8:43 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 139 of 414 (551796)
03-24-2010 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Wounded King
03-24-2010 7:38 AM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
As G_d suggests, when you come to a site which people choose to frequent because their hobby is discussing evolution/creation, religion/materialism, theism/atheism then you are likely to find people from the more extreme fringes of adherence to each position, because the moderates who don't really feel they have a horse in the race wouldn't be bothered to find such a site in the first place.

Agreed, which is why anecdote leads to these kind of conclusions. That of course brings about stereotypes because it is only the loudest one's who the public sees.

My point is one cannot be glib about the assertion that atheism is merely about a simple disbelief, at least not for the majority on this site.

But I would agree that in all liklihood, most people that would refer to themselves as atheists aren't concerned enough to even find a forum such as this, much less participate regularly.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 7:38 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
Peepul
Member (Idle past 2913 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 140 of 414 (551798)
03-24-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by marc9000
03-23-2010 8:33 PM


quote:
There are exceptions to every rule of course, but most any atheist in today's society will make a beeline to evolution when asked about their view of the world. You're saying that a Christian could engage in a 5 or 10 minute conversation with you about human origins and you'd never say a word about evolution?

ah - well if you're discussing that kind of topic, then it will come up. I'm saying that in most circumstances it doesn't. I don''t think in real life I have ever discussed origins with a Christian. Many Christians believe in evolution anyway so human origins are not a controversial subject with them.

quote:
So I ask again, what beliefs are unique to Atheism?
His next answer "We accept Evolution as fact"

This is completely wrong. This belief is not unique to atheism, nor is it held by all atheists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by marc9000, posted 03-23-2010 8:33 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 414 (551828)
03-24-2010 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Wounded King
03-24-2010 7:38 AM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
As G_d suggests, when you come to a site which people choose to frequent because their hobby is discussing evolution/creation, religion/materialism, theism/atheism then you are likely to find people from the more extreme fringes of adherence to each position, because the moderates who don't really feel they have a horse in the race wouldn't be bothered to find such a site in the first place. And this is only exacerbated since people are specifically going to be more focused on discussing these polarising topics.

If you think that that means that any atheist on this site, let alone most atheists, goes about their day to day life berating people for not embracing rationalism and denying the existence of the supernatural then maybe that says more about you than it does about them.

Spend more time on facebook and youtube in regards to anything religious and notice how these new youthful atheists act and let me know if you think they go about their day to day life berating people. Not that they're the majority, but there does seem to be a trend. Although it could just be a kid thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 7:38 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1990 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 142 of 414 (551830)
03-24-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2010 12:15 PM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
Well I'd suggest that people who are prepared to put a video of themselves up on youtube discussing religion are also an extreme self selecting population. All you are doing is pointing at an almost exactly equivalent self selecting population and seeing the same thing. Are you suggesting that there isn't at least an equivalent quantity of obnoxious theists posting in these venues?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2010 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2010 12:35 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 414 (551831)
03-24-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Wounded King
03-24-2010 12:25 PM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
Well I'd suggest that people who are prepared to put a video of themselves up on youtube discussing religion are also an extreme self selecting population. All you are doing is pointing at an almost exactly equivalent self selecting population and seeing the same thing. Are you suggesting that there isn't at least an equivalent quantity of obnoxious theists posting in these venues?

Of course not, but the theists are certainly religious.

It just bugs me to see all the "obnoxious" atheists going much further than nothing more than disbelief all the while falling back on just that when they're criticized.

Its sanctimonious!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2010 12:25 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Taq, posted 03-24-2010 1:01 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 147 by hooah212002, posted 03-24-2010 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7557
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 144 of 414 (551833)
03-24-2010 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
It just bugs me to see all the "obnoxious" atheists going much further than nothing more than disbelief all the while falling back on just that when they're criticized.

The problem arises when critics of atheism conflate atheism with atheists. The worldview of one atheist does not reflect on all atheists, nor atheism itself. The common thread among ALL atheists is atheism which is a lack of belief in supernatural deities.

Also, you are ignoring the unavoidable social conflicts involved. Atheists have long been on the defensive for holding the minority view in western cultures. Some have even described discrimination against atheists as the last acceptable form of discrimination. We are asked the same questions over and over, such as "Are you an atheist because you hate God" or "Are you an atheist because you don't want to be the product of a Creator". Many of our answers to general questions have these specific questions in mind. It is much like scripted chess openings, if you will. Our opening arguments are often meant to counter the most common gambits.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2010 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 145 of 414 (551847)
03-24-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Hyroglyphx
03-24-2010 7:02 AM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
If anyone takes this place that seriously by ever referring to it as "their world," they therefore subject themselves to open scorn and public mockery.

Who has done this?

As WK points out, the "their world" is the perception that I am attributing to you based upon your own commnets here:

Hyro writes:

Well, that may or may not be true for you, but hang around the forum a while and you will see just how detached some of the resident atheists are with their unbelief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-24-2010 7:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 593 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 146 of 414 (551850)
03-24-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Granny Magda
03-24-2010 12:56 AM


Hi, Granny.

I think the image I'm getting from what you and others have said on this thread is that atheism could be thought of as a tenet to which some religion or philosophy could include as part of its "doctrines," but cannot feasibly be called a "religion" or "philosophy" on its own.

Because the tenet of atheism is the biggest affront to most western religions, it tends to get blamed for everything that opposes or contradicts those religions. So, it becomes the buzzword, like "evolutionist," and people start thinking that it, combined with all the other things that they lump together as its baggage, is a religion. And, that little notion has all kinds of rhetorical power.

I think the irony of it is that we (the religious) end up---as we always seem to do---obfuscating the meaning of things we hold dear (the very concept of "religion," in this case), and even maligning those things by using them as rhetorical devices to denigrate our "enemies."

Honestly, my only major complaint against religion is that it's too flippin' religious... if that makes sense.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Granny Magda, posted 03-24-2010 12:56 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Granny Magda, posted 03-24-2010 8:59 PM Blue Jay has acknowledged this reply

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 125 days)
Posts: 3181
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 147 of 414 (551852)
03-24-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Why Not Sort By Belief?
Who else is going to fight the good fight against religious bigotry? Against religious stupidity? Non-atheists?


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersófor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinóconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2010 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 148 of 414 (551869)
03-24-2010 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Blue Jay
03-24-2010 2:56 PM


Bluejay, i completely agree with your comments about atheism being a possible tenet of wider belief systems, but not a belief system in itself. It could be a tenet of Humanism for example, but it is not a broad philosophy.

I also agree with your assessment of the motivations behind the labelling of atheism as a religion. Straw-man atheists, like the ones in Den's OP make much more appealing villains than the real-world variety.

I think the irony of it is that we (the religious) end up---as we always seem to do---obfuscating the meaning of things we hold dear (the very concept of "religion," in this case), and even maligning those things by using them as rhetorical devices to denigrate our "enemies."

I know, it's just so weird. You'd think that religious folks would see "religious" as being a compliment, but it is often levelled at atheists as if it were an insult. When it is used this way, it often seems to be a synonym for "dogmatic", "zealous", "closed-minded" or "extremist". A classic case of projection I say.

Honestly, my only major complaint against religion is that it's too flippin' religious... if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. That must be an uncomfortable position to be in though. I don't envy you.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Blue Jay, posted 03-24-2010 2:56 PM Blue Jay has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2010 5:33 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 414 (551996)
03-25-2010 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Granny Magda
03-24-2010 8:59 PM


You'd think that religious folks would see "religious" as being a compliment, but it is often levelled at atheists as if it were an insult.

It seems to me that the neo-atheists want to distance themselves as far from being religious as possible. To them, it could be an insult.

When it is used this way, it often seems to be a synonym for "dogmatic", "zealous", "closed-minded" or "extremist".

And then I see them displaying just those things you mention.

So when I say they're religious, they fall back on:

"Nuh-uh... atheism is just a lack of belief in god and nothing more"

Well, they ARE acting like religious people.

"ZOMG! TEH RELIGUNZ R SOO TERRIBLE. THEY SHOULD ALL VANISH! YEAH ATHEISM!"

--"wow, you guys sure are religious yourselves"

"NO WAY! ATHEISM IS JUST A LACK OF BELIEF. THATS IT!"

I do get that that doesn't make atheism a religion, and in general I don't think it is.

It seems that they use their "pure" atheism to fuel something bigger and then when their hypocrisy is pointed out, they fall back onto the "pure" form. Well I think its bogus.

So when I see the same old claim of atheism being nothing more that non-belief, I can't help but think of all those asshats that use it as more.

Honestly, my only major complaint against religion is that it's too flippin' religious... if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. That must be an uncomfortable position to be in though. I don't envy you.

That's a great way to put it!

This damn religion is too religious


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Granny Magda, posted 03-24-2010 8:59 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by lyx2no, posted 03-25-2010 7:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 151 by Granny Magda, posted 03-25-2010 7:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 03-26-2010 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2611 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 150 of 414 (552008)
03-25-2010 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by New Cat's Eye
03-25-2010 5:33 PM


Be Reasonable
Being an atheist does not preclude one from their prejudices. The religious and non-religious alike think the world should be run their way. The difference is that not being something isn't a good clarion call, resulting in a lack of oppressive atheist associations.


You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2010 5:33 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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