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Author Topic:   Safety and Effectiveness of Herbs and Pharmaceuticals
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 151 of 209 (555341)
04-13-2010 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 11:57 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
All I can say to you is read up on the websites on causes of cancer and avoiding cancer. Some remote cultures like Exkimoes (sic) or cultures remote in the Himalayas, etc who eat no processed foods have in the past, been pretty much cancer free.
As was discovered by Weston A. Price a century ago. You can go to the Weston A. Price Foundation website and choose from a number of articles that have further researched the healthy diets of native populations:
In His Footsteps

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 209 (555348)
04-13-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Coragyps
04-12-2010 6:31 PM


Re: Herbalife Claims
Coragyps writes:
I'm sure it isn't. But the herbal woo goddam sure sucked Lidia in and killed her.
And it's "holistic." Or, most of the time, "quackery."
Likely your Lidia got some miss-information or poor advice from someone. I don't think Herbalife would be so stupid as to claim their products cure cancer. Can you cite evidence otherwise?
No alternative suppliments are a silver bullet for cancer. Going at it naturally would require a very stringent and well guided regimen. Also, it depends on how advanced the cancer was before beginning any program. There comes a point where nothing outside of a miracle will be able to bring remission or cure.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 153 of 209 (555351)
04-13-2010 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 11:57 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Some remote cultures like Eskimoes or cultures remote in the Himalayas, etc who eat no processed foods have in the past, been pretty much cancer free.
At lest in the case of the Inuit this is also a population with previously generally low life expectancies. That isn't to suggest that the large changes in Inuit lifestyles in the modern era haven't contributed significantly to cance incidence. But to ascribe it all to processed foods is facile and overlooks other major causative factors that are well established, such as smoking, exercise, other dietary factors, patterns of childbirth and breastfeeding, seems naive.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 154 of 209 (555363)
04-13-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 11:57 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
All I can say to you is read up on the websites on causes of cancer and avoiding cancer.
Some of my colleagues research cancer. I read the primary lit., you know, that sciency stuff. Cancer is unavoidable. It is only a matter of time before you have enough mutations in a minimum number of oncogenes.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Buzsaw, posted 04-13-2010 11:35 AM Taq has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 209 (555388)
04-13-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Wounded King
04-13-2010 8:39 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Wounded King writes:
At lest in the case of the Inuit this is also a population with previously generally low life expectancies. That isn't to suggest that the large changes in Inuit lifestyles in the modern era haven't contributed significantly to cance incidence. But to ascribe it all to processed foods is facile and overlooks other major causative factors that are well established, such as smoking, exercise, other dietary factors, patterns of childbirth and breastfeeding, seems naive.
Nobody's ascribing life expectancy and/or cancer to diet alone. The point has been that diet is a significant factor. Health regimes applied by practitioners, of course, include other than diet, including abstinence from harmful habits and other healthful aspects of lifestyle.
Much to do with long life expectancy in America is medicine's ability to keep people alive, abbeit with very poor quality including nursing homes, feeding tubes, heart devices, transplants, stomach bags, oxygen tanks, etc. Were it not for these life props, life expectancy in America would be significantly lower.
Holistic methodology which treats the whole body affords a better quality of life and it keeps folks like me and my family free from burdening the already overloaded public funded healthcare services. My wife and I pay about $3000 a year of our meager social security benefits to pay premiums on medicare which we may never use aside from an accidental injury whereas obese folks who thrive on junk food and smoke etc invariably eventually drain the system due to their lifestyle. These public funded healthcare leaches are often the loudest skeptics who pshaw alternatives as quakery.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 209 (555390)
04-13-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Taq
04-13-2010 9:25 AM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Taq writes:
Some of my colleagues research cancer. I read the primary lit., you know, that sciency stuff. Cancer is unavoidable. It is only a matter of time before you have enough mutations in a minimum number of oncogenes.
There are research cancer colleages who are in the system which finds it more profitable to look for cures than to find them. Likely your colleages are of that mindset, some wittingly or unwittingly due to what's programmed into their thinking from the med schools who's foundations are largely funded by the rich pharma fatcats.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 9:25 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 12:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 157 of 209 (555392)
04-13-2010 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Buzsaw
04-13-2010 11:35 AM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
There are research cancer colleages who are in the system which finds it more profitable to look for cures than to find them.
So you are saying that scientists are discovering cancer cures and throwing them out the window? Really? Have any evidence to back this up?
Likely your colleages are of that mindset, some wittingly or unwittingly due to what's programmed into their thinking from the med schools who's foundations are largely funded by the rich pharma fatcats.
They are not of that mindset, and it is insulting for you to even suggest it. Of course, this is the unfounded paranoia that the wholistic medicine crowd fosters. They believe the worse in all other people while excusing themselves of any skepticism whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 209 (555449)
04-13-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Taq
04-13-2010 12:00 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Taq writes:
So you are saying that scientists are discovering cancer cures and throwing them out the window? Really? Have any evidence to back this up?
The research and study grants go primarily to the pharms industry. For decades, the AMA and the American Cancer Society, etc have, year after year collected millions upon millions searching for this or that silver bullets to pop at cancer, while the alternative wholistic clenics quietly go at the whole body's systemic problems with detoxifying and building up the body's immune functions etc. Many of the patients who end up in the holistic places were given up on by the medical docs so they finally go to as a last resort to the people who can often actually help them.

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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 159 of 209 (555454)
04-13-2010 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Buzsaw
04-13-2010 5:14 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Many of the patients who end up in the holistic places were given up on by the medical docs so they finally go to as a last resort to the people who can often actually help them.
Any evidence that holistic treatment for cancer works? Or just anecdotal evidence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Buzsaw, posted 04-13-2010 5:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 160 of 209 (555456)
04-13-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Buzsaw
04-13-2010 5:14 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
The research and study grants go primarily to the pharms industry
And that has nothing to do with the fact that they can actually produce evidence in support of their work?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 209 (555484)
04-13-2010 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Theodoric
04-13-2010 5:31 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Any evidence that holistic treatment for cancer works? Or just anecdotal evidence?
The evidence is people who were given up as terminal by conventional MDs still walking around alive and functioning.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Theodoric, posted 04-13-2010 5:31 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2010 12:39 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2010 8:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 162 of 209 (555492)
04-14-2010 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
04-13-2010 10:54 PM


Not the Question
Theodoric writes:
Any evidence that holistic treatment for cancer works? Or just anecdotal evidence?
Buzsaw writes:
The evidence is people who were given up as terminal by conventional MDs still walking around alive and functioning.
You failed to answer the question.
Please allow me to rephrase.
Do you have any evidence other than personal testimony, which not only covers an insignificant percentage of the total amount of individuals using holistic treatments, but is also limited to survivors.
We do not have the testimony of cancer victims who used holistic treatments where such treatments failed for the simple reason they are dead.
Your anecdotal evidence is suspect for that very reason.
Now, in order to have more than anecdotal evidence, one would take a sample population (the larger the better) and then look at how many used traditional treatments, and how many used holistic treatments, and then compare the two to see which had a higher survival rate.
Unfortunately, I doubt you can even begin to understand what I am saying.
Please feel free to prove me wrong by directly answering Theodoric's question.
Edited by anglagard, : misspelled Theodoric

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 04-13-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 163 of 209 (555565)
04-14-2010 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
04-13-2010 10:54 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
The evidence is people who were given up as terminal by conventional MDs still walking around alive and functioning.
Why waste the time? Why didn't you just give the one word answer?
No.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 209 (555569)
04-14-2010 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by anglagard
04-14-2010 12:39 AM


Re: Not the Question
anglagard writes:
Do you have any evidence other than personal testimony, which not only covers an insignificant percentage of the total amount of individuals using holistic treatments, but is also limited to survivors.
Would the world renouned Scripts Clinic and other scientifically astute institutions integrate holistic regimes into their healthcare methodologies if they were not scientifically evidenced?
Edited by Buzsaw, : clarify wording

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 165 of 209 (555575)
04-14-2010 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Buzsaw
04-14-2010 8:49 AM


So the answer is still no
The question.
Any evidence that holistic treatment for cancer works? Or just anecdotal evidence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Buzsaw, posted 04-14-2010 8:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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