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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 9 of 244 (556475)
04-20-2010 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
04-20-2010 1:25 AM


Faith writes:
Freedom to practice your own religion isn't the same thing as having your religion officially recognized by an official body of the government
So you would rather the Air Force Academy not provide worship areas for any religion then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:48 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 11 of 244 (556478)
04-20-2010 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
04-20-2010 1:48 AM


You wouldn't mind at all then if, say, the beautiful Air Force Academy chapel in Colorado Springs were shut down?
Link
ABE:
Personally, I think it's an important service for our service-men and women to have access to priests and a place to worship. I don't see why providing them with this is tantamount to the government endorsing specific beliefs. I would never advocate depriving our troops of this.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : Added some of my own thoughts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:57 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 14 of 244 (556483)
04-20-2010 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
04-20-2010 1:57 AM


Well, rest assured that the establishment clause of the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing ANY religion. That's why Christian creationism can't be taught in public school science classrooms (beside the point that it's unscientific).
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why granting all religions a place to worship equals endorsing any specific religion. It seems to me that what's going on is really the opposite. Now if religion A were prohibited on the grounds that it offended members of religion B, would that not be a tacit endorsement of religion B? Food for thought.
Have a nice day.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:57 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2010 8:40 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 15 of 244 (556485)
04-20-2010 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
04-20-2010 1:57 AM


Faith writes:
It's an official recognition to create a worship space
Then they've already officially recognized your (our) religion.
Earlier you wrote:
Faith writes:
Freedom to practice your own religion isn't the same thing as having your religion officially recognized by an official body of the government and you and I know that the true God won't tolerate that for long
Bit of a double standard? So if God doesn't tolerate government recognition of any religion, then there should have been problems as soon as the Christian chapel was built.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 1:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 19 of 244 (556491)
04-20-2010 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


I'm afraid so. Especially since you apparently don't want to discuss the issue and come to an agreement. Is that how you deal with other topics of discussion? A sort of "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you don't like it you can go *bleep* yourself!" approach?
Oh wait, that's how you want religion to be handled in this country. You'd rather the government restricted people's religious freedoms and became a theocracy.
"Hey! Maybe if we oppress everyone who isn't a Christian they will see the love of God!"
I'm sorry, Faith. I think we're really just going to have to disagree on this one. While some of us are going to reach out and be "fishers of men"* using love, tolerance, and reason as bait, feel free to try scaring fish into your net using a sharp stick.
-Meldinoor
*A term used by Jesus for the early evangelists

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 124 of 244 (556917)
04-21-2010 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
04-21-2010 12:45 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Faith writes:
Christopher Columbus came to America with the strong conviction that God was sending him to bring Christ to the new world.
Pardon me if my History's a bit rusty, but didn't Christopher Columbus come to the New World thinking it was India?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 12:45 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Rahvin, posted 04-21-2010 6:28 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 126 of 244 (556920)
04-21-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
04-21-2010 5:50 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Faith writes:
But he clearly considered the U.S. to be founded on Christian PRINCIPLES and required these of the citizenry to guarantee our freedoms.
Which Christian principles were these?
-Meldinoor
ABE: Be specific
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 5:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 5:55 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 128 of 244 (556922)
04-21-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
04-21-2010 5:55 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Thank you, Faith.
I may indeed be able to infer some "principals", but I'd like you, the expert, to explain which "Christian principals" this nation was founded on.
Thanks,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 5:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


(1)
Message 143 of 244 (556957)
04-21-2010 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
04-21-2010 7:18 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Sorry, freedom of religion IS derived from Christianity whether you can see it or not
Really? So why were some of the first laws guaranteeing freedom of religion written in antiquity, before Christianity even existed?
Wikipedia writes:
Freedom of religious worship was established in the Maurya Empire of ancient India by Asoka the Great in the 3rd century BC, which was encapsulated in the Edicts of Ashoka.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
ABE:
quote:
From Wiki
encapsulated in an inscription of Asoka:
King Piyadasi (Ashok) dear to the Gods, honours all sects, the ascetics (hermits) or those who dwell at home, he honours them with charity and in other ways. But the King, dear to the Gods, attributes less importance to this charity and these honours than to the vow of seeing the reign of virtues, which constitutes the essential part of them. For all these virtues there is a common source, modesty of speech. That is to say, One must not exalt one’s creed discrediting all others, nor must one degrade these others Without legitimate reasons. One must, on the contrary, render to other creeds the honour befitting them.
Edited by Meldinoor, : ABE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:01 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:14 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 145 of 244 (556961)
04-21-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:01 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Shall I amend it to say that freedom of religion in the West is derived from Christianity
Even if you're right, it shows that freedom of religion is not an exclusively Christian principle, but a principle that has cropped up in places that were not influenced by Christianity. In other words, you don't need a Christian nation in order to respect freedom of religion.
Faith writes:
And I'd also like to point out that in other cultures where there is supposedly freedom of religion when Christianity joins in it's not accepted
Faith writes:
The Romans were quite happen with all their religions and would have accepted Christianity too except that Christians wouldn't worship Caesar or any other god
I'm not aware that Rome had a constitution guaranteeing religious freedom at that time.
Faith writes:
Hinduism is also supposedly tolerant of other religions because of their own huge collection of gods, but Hindus are persecuting native Christians in India
Not legally. Hindu nationalist groups are persecuting Christians, but that's not because Indian law allows persecution of Christians. The KKK claim to be Christians, but that doesn't make all Christians violent racist bigots. They don't reflect the American constitution either. Fact is that the Indians had true legal freedom of religion long before Christians came around.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
ABE:
Wikipedia writes:
Ancient Jews fleeing from persecution in their homeland 2,500 years ago settled in India and never faced Anti-Semitism. Freedom of religion edicts have been found written during Ashoka the Great's reign in 3rd Century BC. Freedom to practise, preach and propagate any religion is a constitutional right in Modern India. Indians celebrate and respect the holy festivals of all major religions. India is a 80% Hindu country yet its Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, is a Sikh, the leader of its largest political party is an Italian origin Catholic female (Sonia Gandhi), its previous president was a Muslim (A. P. J. Abdul Kalam), and its president before him was a Dalit (K. R. Narayanan).
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:26 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 147 of 244 (556963)
04-21-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:14 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Yes, a perfect statement of the pagan version of freedom of religion
Faith writes:
King Piyadasi (Ashok) dear to the Gods, honours all sects, the ascetics (hermits) or those who dwell at home, he honours them with charity and in other ways. But the King, dear to the Gods, attributes less importance to this charity and these honours than to the vow of seeing the reign of virtues, which constitutes the essential part of them. For all these virtues there is a common source, modesty of speech. That is to say, One must not exalt one’s creed discrediting all others, nor must one degrade these others Without legitimate reasons. One must, on the contrary, render to other creeds the honour befitting them.
It seems to me that what the king wants is a religious and moral people, just like our founding fathers. Charity toward any religion is less important than the reign of virtue.
I think you're reading it wrong. You think by "honouring" one was required to worship all religions. But from the context, it seems obvious that what they're really talking about is being virtuous, and not to be disrespectful to people of other faiths.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:44 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 151 of 244 (556967)
04-21-2010 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Well, but you do need the Christian version of religious freedom for the kind of religious freedom that we have. What they have is not the same freedom of religion, it's simply one pagan god honoring another, but not the true God. But the true God respects His human creation and their choices and honors them despite their religions.
I don't believe in pagan gods, and presumably, neither do you. Laws are not about pagan gods doing anything, laws are for people. Our constitution requires that people allow each other the right to religious freedom. The constitution does not talk about what God does, or which is the true god. Not even the American constitution does that.
Faith writes:
Surely the will of Caesar counts in the place of a Constitution as far as Roman law goes. The Caesars would quite happily have tolerated all religions but not one that refused to worship Caesar.
Then it's not freedom of religion. Why'd you bring up the Romans now again?
Faith writes:
Well, Indian law isn't doing anything to stop it. And don't be misled, it's a religious motivation behind it, not nationalism though they mix the two. And it's other INDIANS they are persecuting.
It is religiously motivated. That doesn't make it legal under Indian law. Can you show me some sources about Indian law enforcement keeping a blind eye toward the persecution of Christians?
Faith writes:
And the KKK is outlawed and subject to legal action against their criminal behavior.
Precisely. Just like religious persecution in India. So why is religion more free here?
Faith writes:
All pagan religions have a lot in common with each other.
Religions generally have a lot in common with each other, period.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 12:16 AM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:39 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 153 of 244 (556970)
04-21-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Soon as a Christian dares to suggest to a follower of another creed that Jesus Christ offers him forgiveness of sin through His death on the cross, and eternal life in the presence of God, end of "religious freedom" for Christians because that's exalting one's own creed and dishonoring the other creeds.
How have I dishonored someone else's creed by telling them what I believe? Do you feel disrespected when someone tells you what they believe? Do you feel that your beliefs are belittled whenever a Jehova's Witness knocks on your door?
I don't think Indian law prohibits Christians from evangelising, but if you have a source for this claim I'd be happy to look at it.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 12:21 AM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:06 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
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