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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 102 of 244 (556764)
04-21-2010 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Rahvin
04-20-2010 9:55 PM


Re: prohibiting the free exercise of religion in the service of the first amendment
Faith, there is a rather large difference between prohibiting the formation of a school club (which would receive money/space/whatever from public dollars and thus constitute an official endorsement of that religion over others) and prohibiting the possession of Bibles or prayer by individual students.
I'm not perfectly clear about what you're saying, so if I misunderstand, please forgive me, but I think you are incorrect about part of this.
If a school generally lets student groups use school facilities, the school may not prohibit religiously oriented groups from using the facility on the same basis as the other groups. There is a specific Federal statute on this issue, and my opinion is that the Constitution requires this equality of treatment. This does not amount to an establishment of religion, instead it is an accommodation of religion.
There is an inherent tension between the Establishment and Free Exercises Clauses. Reasonable minds can come to different conclusions on particular resolutions of different situations. But it is clear under current jurisprudence that schools must allow student religious groups access to school facilities to the same extent that other student groups have it.
As far as just about everything Faith says in this thread, she is so irretrievably wrong that it would take someone with the wisdom of Oliver Wendell Holmes and the patience of Job to explain it to her. Since I lack both, I see no point in banging my head on that brick wall.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Rahvin, posted 04-20-2010 9:55 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 182 of 244 (557072)
04-22-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
04-22-2010 1:11 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
One of those rights is the free exercise of religion and the Constitution does not limit that free exercise in government buildings or functions. Exercising does not constitute establishment.
It all depends on who is exercising. If it's a government official in the exercise of his/her duties, then it is. If it's a person acting in their capacity as a private individual, then it's not.
Capisce?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2010 1:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:17 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 184 of 244 (557077)
04-22-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:17 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
Yes.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 187 of 244 (557080)
04-22-2010 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:23 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
The third Clause of Article I Section 2 as written began with
(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.)
The first Clause of Article I Section 2 as written stated
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The third Clause of Article IV Section 2 as written stated
(No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.)
It was in fact written into the Constitution.
Once again, Faith, you are simply wrong.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 7:16 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 188 of 244 (557081)
04-22-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
Wow, hysterical much?
No, I would not have heckled anyone. That would have been rude and improper. I would not have written hate mail. Believe it or not, it is possible to civilly disagree on these matters.
{AbE} What's more, and just for the record, I'm not sure all of those things are comparable to the first example that you gave, either. But at the moment I'm not particularly interested in closely examining that question. {End edit}
Seriously Faith, I think you need to get your meds adjusted.
Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 206 of 244 (557225)
04-23-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rrhain
04-23-2010 9:44 PM


Similarly, there is nothing preventing a State from saying that in order to vote, you must have a college degree.
While you are correct that there is nothing in the Constitution expressly prohibiting such a requirement, I suspect that courts would likely strike any such requirement under reasoning similar to that in Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2010 9:44 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2010 9:00 PM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 211 of 244 (557337)
04-24-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 4:54 PM


Re: Voting Rights
Buz, there's really only one response to this installment of your "wisdom."

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 4:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 214 of 244 (557343)
04-24-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 6:02 PM


Let me call you a waaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance
There are some positions that are so mind-boggling bereft of any meaningful substance that the only appropriate response is ridicule. Thomas Jefferson identified one, as I outline in my signature. You have produced another one. Anyone who could even pretend to hold the position you describe cannot be influenced by a substantive reply. I already knew that you were such a person. You really didn't need to provide further proof of your inability to perceive reality, but it was nice of you to do so anyway.
Interestingly, according to Wiki, there are only two places in the world where women aren't allowed to vote, Saudi Arabia and the Holy See. This is the sort of company you find yourself in, Buz. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the delicious irony in this fact.
Edited by subbie, : Subtitle

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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