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Author Topic:   Can anything exist for an infinite time or outside of time?
DPowell
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


(1)
Message 61 of 158 (557777)
04-27-2010 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
04-15-2010 11:48 AM


First Cause
Whatever your cosmology or worldview, in the end you are left with the truth that something is infinite/eternal.
As we look back at history (and pre-history), we can continually ask, "And before that? Before that? Before that? Before that? ... etc. But at some point we are left with what we must consider our *beginning* point. Generally speaking, we are comfortable with beginnings. A sporting event has a definite beginning and a definite end and a duration of, say, 3 hours. A movie has a definite beginning and a definite end and a duration of 2 hours or so.
The difference between games and movies and the history of being is that the first two are finite events while the course of history hints strongly of an infinitude. Finite events exist at points in the course of historical time. However, as we trace back chronological events to our eventual starting point that we label as the *beginning* we are left with the haunting sense that it could not simply be the beginning. For instance, the Big Bang Theory would represent an absolute beginning point for the existence of everything in the Universe. But we are left to ask questions like, "What was going on before the Big Bang (when all of the matter/energy in the Universe were supposedly consolidated into a singularity of space)? How long was stuff going on before the Big Bang? What CAUSED the Big Bang (because in our understanding of history, things do not simply happen un-caused...exempting quantum mechanics for the time being).
All of this to say that ultimately we are left with the conclusion that the history of stuff before the Big Bang (in which nothing was happening, apparently) is infinitely long. It makes far more sense to say that before stuff started happening and history began was the existence of the eternal (outside of time), infinite God who then caused everything else in history to have its beginning.
I hope this was clear...I worry it might not be so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 04-15-2010 11:48 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by onifre, posted 04-27-2010 9:36 PM DPowell has replied
 Message 63 by hooah212002, posted 04-27-2010 10:38 PM DPowell has replied
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 04-27-2010 11:15 PM DPowell has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 62 of 158 (557780)
04-27-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by DPowell
04-27-2010 9:10 PM


Re: First Cause
It makes far more sense to say that before stuff started happening and history began was the existence of the eternal (outside of time), infinite God who then caused everything else in history to have its beginning.
No it doesn't.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DPowell, posted 04-27-2010 9:10 PM DPowell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by DPowell, posted 05-05-2010 1:54 PM onifre has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 63 of 158 (557787)
04-27-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by DPowell
04-27-2010 9:10 PM


Re: First Cause
The difference between games and movies and the history of being is that the first two are finite events while the course of history hints strongly of an infinitude. Finite events exist at points in the course of historical time. However, as we trace back chronological events to our eventual starting point that we label as the *beginning* we are left with the haunting sense that it could not simply be the beginning. For instance, the Big Bang Theory would represent an absolute beginning point for the existence of everything in the Universe. But we are left to ask questions like, "What was going on before the Big Bang (when all of the matter/energy in the Universe were supposedly consolidated into a singularity of space)? How long was stuff going on before the Big Bang? What CAUSED the Big Bang (because in our understanding of history, things do not simply happen un-caused...exempting quantum mechanics for the time being).
There are a number of theories that are trying to explain this using science. Just saying "goddidit" and stopping there does nothing for us.
It makes far more sense to say that before stuff started happening and history began was the existence of the eternal (outside of time), infinite God who then caused everything else in history to have its beginning.
Like Oni said: no, it doesn't. This "god" you speak of? yea, it's a figment of your imagination until you unequivocally prove it's existence. I have my own hypotheses about how x-tianity has withstood the test of time, but that's not for this thread.
You see, we are ever closer to viewing t=0. Especially with Hubble's replacement. We see that the universe is expanding, ever faster from a singularity: which points to a beginning. Yet, through all of the cosmological images that have been beamed down from the nether regions of space: NO GOD. He sure likes to hide, eh?
Edited by hooah212002, : spelling

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DPowell, posted 04-27-2010 9:10 PM DPowell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by DPowell, posted 05-06-2010 1:06 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 64 of 158 (557791)
04-27-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by DPowell
04-27-2010 9:10 PM


Re: Infinite Universe, Infinite Time,
DPowell writes:
It makes far more sense to say that before stuff started happening and history began was the existence of the eternal (outside of time), infinite God who then caused everything else in history to have its beginning.
Hi DPowell. Welcome to EvC. As a Biblical theist I'm convinced that the universe has to be infinite, including time, space, all energy and the cosmos, since according to the Bible, Jehovah, god of the Bible exists in the cosmos/heavens with his entourage of angels, etc. The nature of him is that he, being the same yesterday, today and forever was never without history and time.
The problem I see with an aleged temporal time is that there would then be no existing time for the BB to have happened since the alleged singularity was allegedly the beginning of time and the expansion of space, etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DPowell, posted 04-27-2010 9:10 PM DPowell has seen this message but not replied

  
hawkes nightmare
Junior Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 01-26-2010


Message 65 of 158 (557958)
04-28-2010 8:58 PM


In response to Dpowell's theory and mombo-jumbo about the big bang:
Ialso agree with Buzsaw on all counts, therefore, i have no further reply.
Edited by hawkes nightmare, : No reason given.
Edited by hawkes nightmare, : No reason given.

[b][color=red]I am lost, I am found. I am lost to myself, found in the darkness beneath hell itself
Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the former. -Albert Einstein[/color=red][/b]

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Natural_Design, posted 04-28-2010 11:08 PM hawkes nightmare has not replied

  
Natural_Design
Junior Member (Idle past 5081 days)
Posts: 12
From: Flint, Michigan, USA
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 66 of 158 (557960)
04-28-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by hawkes nightmare
04-28-2010 8:58 PM


Last weekend I had a revelation/vision of how the Universe was created. At first there was only Allah. He is a neon greenish color ( energy ) and he is surrounded by empty whiteness. This whiteness never ends as it is his realm of existence. I saw how he put forth the Universe. He didn't speak it into existence; he thought it into existence. And everything came into existence at once. There was no 6 day period of creation. Absolutely every detail, thought and function of the Universe began instantly.
Think of it this way. Allah put me in his perspective before the Universe was created. He showed me this vast empty whiteness that was before him. Then, suddenly, it was like he just threw the Universe into existence. It just appeared. I saw this black box filled with stars, planets, ect, come into existence and it is surrounded by this empty whiteness which is Allah's realm of existence. The Universe is like a black picture on a white wall to Allah. Get my point? or understand what I was shown ? And no I am not delusional or have hallucination. I am a pretty deep thinker so maybe this is why Allah blessed me with this Vision.
And you don't have to believe me. That is fine with me, as hardly anyone believes me these days.
Also, today, I had another smaller revelation -- that I finally came in touch with my inner-humanness. Theres no doubt we were created. This whole existence; this whole perception of reality that we have was created. I was overwhelmed by this feeling of how so many people take their inner-humanness for granted. They truly have no idea what life is or how special it really is.
Allah Akbar.
Edited by Natural_Design, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by hawkes nightmare, posted 04-28-2010 8:58 PM hawkes nightmare has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by hooah212002, posted 04-29-2010 8:09 AM Natural_Design has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 67 of 158 (557991)
04-29-2010 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Natural_Design
04-28-2010 11:08 PM


Welcome to EvC. We don't get may Muslim's around here.
Can I have some of what you are smoking?

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Natural_Design, posted 04-28-2010 11:08 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
Natural_Design
Junior Member (Idle past 5081 days)
Posts: 12
From: Flint, Michigan, USA
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 68 of 158 (558055)
04-29-2010 3:09 PM


" Welcome to EvC. We don't get may Muslim's around here.
Can I have some of what you are smoking? "
Hi and thanks for the welcome. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to '' quote '' people. Any tips? Thanks.
As far as smoking goes -- I can't smoke anything as of now. I kinda got in trouble with the law thanks to my first encounter with Allah which made me totally lose touch with Reality. So will be a while before I can smoke because they drug test me 4 times a month. I see no problem with light smoking though as you will have visuals come to you and for all we know it is really Allah giving you these visuals -- not the marijuana. Maybe it is a way of communicating on Another Level with Allah? After you smoke and the high begins it is like you are lifted to a new plane. =))
I'll admit though -- this vision brought me to my knees. I almost vomited about 10 times too. I felt so powerless to the Universe. I was overwhelmed by this feeling that if it wasn't for Allah I wouldn't even exist. I felt so grateful and began to shed tears. This lets me know it was spiritual. There is a quote in the Bible that goes along the lines of -- Knock and he will Answer -- well, I felt as if I knocked that night and he did answer me. I have no more worries in life. Tranquility has been found. =))

I reject your reality and substitute my own

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by AdminSlev, posted 04-29-2010 3:15 PM Natural_Design has replied
 Message 71 by hooah212002, posted 04-29-2010 5:35 PM Natural_Design has not replied
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 04-29-2010 5:53 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 69 of 158 (558058)
04-29-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 3:09 PM


Hi ND, and welcome to EvC!
We have some pretty smooth forum guidelines around here, just to keep everything under control so that discussions are more fruitfull. One is that we stay in the topic of the thread.
This thread is about the concept of infinite time or outside of time. It is unclear how your experience with Allah relates to this, so may I suggest that you could start a whole new thread and explain your experience and how you this convinces you that it was a legitimate encounter with Allah. Just go to the ''start New Thread'' section to do so.
Also, to learn how to quote someone effectively
... as you are new here, some posting tips:
type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy
or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote:
quotes are easy
also check out (help) links on any formating questions when in the reply window.
For other formating tips see Posting Tips
If you use the message reply buttons (there's one at the bottom right of each message):

... your message is linked to the one you are replying to (adds clarity). You can also look at the way a post is formated with the "peek" button next to it.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 3:09 PM Natural_Design has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 3:42 PM AdminSlev has not replied

  
Natural_Design
Junior Member (Idle past 5081 days)
Posts: 12
From: Flint, Michigan, USA
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 70 of 158 (558062)
04-29-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AdminSlev
04-29-2010 3:15 PM


This thread is about the concept of infinite time or outside of time. It is unclear how your experience with Allah relates to this, so may I suggest that you could start a whole new thread and explain your experience and how you this convinces you that it was a legitimate encounter with Allah. Just go to the ''start New Thread'' section to do so.
Thank you for telling me how to quote. I thought my vision was pertinent to the topic as I felt I saw and felt this realm of existence which is outside of The Universe. I thought his realm is outside of '' time '' -- which is just a part of the Universe.
Perhaps now I will tell my full story will Allah; Fox News and possibly the CIA. They are really truly like a divine agency. =))
Edited by Natural_Design, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AdminSlev, posted 04-29-2010 3:15 PM AdminSlev has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 71 of 158 (558071)
04-29-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 3:09 PM


I almost vomited about 10 times too. I felt so powerless to the Universe.
I think someone laced some of whatever you were smoking if that all happened to you. Or, where I'm from, you are what we call a "rookie". Unless you're talking Salvia. That's a different story. Still just the drug though. No deity required.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 3:09 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 72 of 158 (558073)
04-29-2010 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 3:09 PM


Maybe it is a way of communicating on Another Level with Allah?
How do you know it was Allah and not just a regular dude in a bear costume?
After you smoke and the high begins it is like you are lifted to a new plane.
From weed? Pfft. Newbie smokers, so cute.
Anywhoo... How does any of this tie into the OP? So you believe in the name Allah and you have created a concept for him existing solely in your brain - (I advise against this btw, dutch cartoonist comes to mind) - but so what?
Where are your facts pertaining to time?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 3:09 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
Natural_Design
Junior Member (Idle past 5081 days)
Posts: 12
From: Flint, Michigan, USA
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 73 of 158 (558085)
04-29-2010 6:34 PM


From weed? Pfft. Newbie smokers, so cute.
Anywhoo... How does any of this tie into the OP? So you believe in the name Allah and you have created a concept for him existing solely in your brain - (I advise against this btw, dutch cartoonist comes to mind) - but so what?
Where are your facts pertaining to time?
I was merely telling my vision as I thought it pertains to existing for infinity plus one -- also outside of time as for all we know time only exists in this Universe that Allah has created for us.
I am no radical Muslim either so no worries. No need to bring up the dutch cartoonist. I actually heard him talk on the radio about why he did what he did and what he was trying to represent. He said that he wasn't depicting the prophet Muhammad. It was a misunderstanding. Confusion, really. Anyway, I vaguely remember the convo -- wish I could hear it again tho.
And Allah is not an imagination of my brain. For all you know our '' brain '' is just an illusion as are all other internal organs. My theory is that all internal organs are a grand illusion -- simply to make us feel more in tune with human life. To make us wonder. To scare us. To make us feel so human and so vulnerable to disease and other things ( heart attacks ) so forth. So, for all you know, every thing we see in our '' brain '' --where is thought to hold our conciousness-- is a vision of Allah or put there by Allah. Maybe not everything; but surely, if Allah created this vast Universe with us in Mind, he has the power to show us things.
~ Allah Akbar ~

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by onifre, posted 04-30-2010 11:17 AM Natural_Design has not replied
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 11:29 AM Natural_Design has not replied
 Message 76 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 04-30-2010 12:44 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 74 of 158 (558215)
04-30-2010 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 6:34 PM


We are completely off topic so this is my last reply
He said that he wasn't depicting the prophet Muhammad. It was a misunderstanding.
The point is, though, who cares if he was trying to simply depict the "prophet" Muhammad? Why should that be a big deal to people who don't follow Islamic mythology?
He should have said the truth, which is, "Yes I drew a picture of a particular figure in Islamic mythology, so what?"
And Allah is not an imagination of my brain.
Got a picture of him? Can you point to him and say, "Look, that's him right there"...? No, you can't. Ever. Do any such thing. For all intents and purposes, he lives solely in your brain. I know that's tough to accept cause you really do believe it as though he was real in some way, but fact is, you have no way to prove it. Same with any other invisible entity. Enjoy your fairy tales...
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 6:34 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 75 of 158 (558220)
04-30-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 6:34 PM


Vision "Outside of Time"
I was merely telling my vision as I thought it pertains to existing for infinity plus one -- also outside of time as for all we know time only exists in this Universe that Allah has created for us.
You had a vision pertaining to "outside of time"?
How long did it last?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 6:34 PM Natural_Design has not replied

  
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