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Author Topic:   Gender and Humor
Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 638 days)
Posts: 5140
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 166 of 269 (559053)
05-06-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by onifre
05-05-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Patrice Oneal schools brawd on funny
Btw, I hate this lady.

This lady is apparently too weak to live with the freedom of speech. She reduced herself to a child.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 6468
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 167 of 269 (559075)
05-06-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by onifre
05-05-2010 4:00 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
And Channel 4 here in UK did one polling the tastes of a different country, this is a list by perceived skill at stand up:

quote:

1 BILLY CONNOLLY
2 RICHARD PRYOR
3 RICKY GERVAIS
4 BILL HICKS
5 EDDIE IZZARD
6 PETER KAY
7 BILL BAILEY
8 CHRIS ROCK
9 MICHAEL MCINTYRE
10 VICTORIA WOOD
11 ROSS NOBLE
12 STEWART LEE
13 JIMMY CARR
14 DYLAN MORAN
15 WOODY ALLEN
16 DARA O'BRIAIN
17 LEE EVANS
18 HARRY HILL
19 SEAN LOCK
20 TOMMY COOPER

21 LEE MACK
22 RUSSELL BRAND
23 DANIEL KITSON
24 LES DAWSON
25 AL MURRAY
26 JACK DEE
27 ALAN CARR
28 GEORGE CARLIN
29 FRANKIE BOYLE
30 JO BRAND
31 ROBIN WILLIAMS
32 TOMMY TIERNAN
33 JERRY SADOWITZ
34 OMID DJALILI
35 RUSSELL HOWARD
36 TIM VINE
37 JASPER CARROTT
38 BEN ELTON
39 REG D HUNTER
40 EDDIE MURPHY

41 ED BYRNE
42 RHOD GILBERT
43 ALAN DAVIES
44 TOMMY TRINDER
45 FRANK SKINNER
46 DAVE GORMAN
47 BOB HOPE
48 JOHNNY VEGAS
49 ROB NEWMAN
50 STEVEN WRIGHT
51 BERNARD MANNING
52 CHRIS ADDISON
53 LENNY BRUCE
54 PAUL MERTON
55 DAVE ALLEN
56 JERRY SEINFELD
57 JOAN RIVERS
58 GRAHAM NORTON
59 STEVE COOGAN
60 ANDY KAUFMAN

61 STEVE MARTIN
62 CHUBBY BROWN
63 PHIL JUPITUS
64 BOB MONKHOUSE
65 JASON MANFORD
66 MARK THOMAS
67 DEMETRI MARTIN
68 PAUL O'GRADY
69 FRANKIE HOWERD
70 JENNY CLAIR
71 DENIS LEARY
72 ALEXEI SAYLE
73 JIM DAVIDSON
74 BILL COSBY
75 PATRICK KIELTY
76 CHIC MURRAY
77 EMO PHILLIPS
78 ARDAL O'HANLON
79 JULIAN CLARY
80 RONNIE CORBETT

81 TIM MINCHIN
82 BOB NEWHART
83 LENNY HENRY
84 DAVE SPIKEY
85 BARRY HUMPHRIES
86 HARRY ENFIELD
87 JETHRO
88 JOE PASQUALE
89 SEAN HUGHES
90 DICK GREGORY
91 RIK MAYALL
92 KEN DODD
93 ROSEANNE
94 ARTHUR SMITH
95 JACKIE MASON
96 LEE HURST
97 FRANK CARSON
98 DAVID BADDIEL
99 SHAPPI KHORSANDI
100 FREDDIE STARR


Just to show that it isn't a USA phenomenon. The female impersonators are almost as well represented as the actual women!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 168 of 269 (559076)
05-06-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Modulous
05-06-2010 1:00 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
The female impersonators are almost as well represented as the actual women!

That's brilliant!

I do have some issues with the list (other than not recognizing a few names). Carlin seems far down on the list, he should be within the first 5 IMO. And Demetri Martin and Emo Phillips should not be anywhere near a list, lol. But the US list had Gallahger so I guess we're even.

The list has Hicks at #4 which I must agree with. The US list had him too far down.

Thanks for sharing this, I'm going to look up the comics I don't recoginze.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Modulous, posted 05-06-2010 1:00 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 6468
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 169 of 269 (559090)
05-06-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
05-06-2010 1:16 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
The list has Hicks at #4 which I must agree with. The US list had him too far down.

Well....I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that.

other than not recognizing a few names

I laughed at the American list. A little home-bias is to be expected, but how many people on that list of Greatest Comics of all time are not US/Canadians? I don't recognise a lot of the names on yours so I can't be sure but it does look a little...myopic.

I'm going to look up the comics I don't recoginze.

While I disagree with the placements, I basically agree with most of the appointees. There are some fantastic stand-ups listed, veritable paragons. With the occasional clanger.

For what it's worth if you were tempted to see if Brits could put any decent female standups, I think they over-rated them all. Victoria Wood writes some funny songs, though witty and catchy songs about being a middle aged woman are difficult to relate to. Likewise, I enjoy Jo Brand just being Jo Brand because she is a smart and interesting person with a clever and fast sense of humour. But I don't rate her as a performer of prepared comedy at all since a huge amount of material is basically her pointing out in a variety of different ways that she is fat,old and ugly.

And Jenny Eclair is just a gobshite.

And Demetri Martin and Emo Phillips should not be anywhere near a list, lol.

I have no idea how Demetri Martin managed to show up on the UK radar...I've never seen his standup stuff. I'll try and find that bit of the show and explain what the talking heads were saying...

As for Emo Philips, I have to say I have enjoyed some of his routines though I haven't seen anything original for a long time.

But the US list had Gallahger so I guess we're even.

I looked up a picture to see if I recognized him - thought RAZD had taken up smashing fruit and closed the browser window. Fair play.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5169
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 170 of 269 (559107)
05-06-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Modulous
05-06-2010 2:28 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
Modulous writes:
I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that.

Perhaps that reflects the difference between British humour and American humor.
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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 967
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 171 of 269 (559112)
05-06-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Modulous
05-06-2010 1:00 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
This is an example of how humour varies across culture. I'd say here in Ireland Billy Connelly would top the poll followed by Dara Briain (surprise, surprise). Even if this isn't exactly correct I would imagine that a poll conducted here would basically be the British poll with the numbers rearranged. The only American comedian very popular here is Bill Hicks.

The simplest example is of the differences is number 12 on the American list:
Jerry Seinfeld.

I have never met anybody on this side of the Atlantic who finds him funny. Especially his "What's the deal with (insert item/body part/ad/job)?" stuff.

A colleague of mine from Spain sometimes watches spanish comedy shows and it seems that they are way more focused on slapstick and I mean slapstick, it's guy slipping on a banana peel stuff. In fact she told me that in Spain sarcasm isn't seen as funny at all.


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onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 172 of 269 (559116)
05-06-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Modulous
05-06-2010 2:28 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
Well....I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that.

Yeah a very small minority, but not uncommon to hear. I have a few friends who don't like him either...I should say, I had a few friends that didn't like him. They are no longer allowed to speak to me.

A little home-bias is to be expected, but how many people on that list of Greatest Comics of all time are not US/Canadians?

Yeah I noticed that too. But except for the famous ones, the US isn't exposed to UK stand up until they make it on a stage in the US.

For what it's worth if you were tempted to see if Brits could put any decent female standups, I think they over-rated them all. Victoria Wood writes some funny songs, though witty and catchy songs about being a middle aged woman are difficult to relate to. Likewise, I enjoy Jo Brand just being Jo Brand because she is a smart and interesting person with a clever and fast sense of humour. But I don't rate her as a performer of prepared comedy at all since a huge amount of material is basically her pointing out in a variety of different ways that she is fat,old and ugly.

And Jenny Eclair is just a gobshite.

I think we can have a consensus on women and stand up then. I would have to agree that most of the women in the US list were over-rated too. Even someone like Roseanne, who many consider funny, isn't as funny as many male stand up comics who didn't make the list. I think the list took into consideration their individual career achievements too, not just their stand up.

I have no idea how Demetri Martin managed to show up on the UK radar...I've never seen his standup stuff.

He had one hour special that was ehh, ok I guess. He is in that alternative genre of stand up, like music acts or props. But funnier than him would have been Stephen Lynch. Even though I don't think Lynch should be on the list of "greatest" he is still a lot funnier than Demetri.

As for Emo Philips, I have to say I have enjoyed some of his routines though I haven't seen anything original for a long time.

I did when I was younger, but I've seen him at clubs (he's still working, esp. in Vegas) and it's not what it used to be for me.

I looked up a picture to see if I recognized him - thought RAZD had taken up smashing fruit and closed the browser window. Fair play.

Oh I hope RAZD sees this post, that was funny dude.

- Oni


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onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 173 of 269 (559117)
05-06-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nwr
05-06-2010 4:10 PM


Re: Analyzing humor, seriously.
Perhaps that reflects the difference between British humour and American humor.

The weird thing is, with someone like Hicks, it shouldn't. Hicks didn't become famous till he hit the UK and for the first time had his act aired on TV uncensored. The Brits LOVED him.

That year he came back to the states and was voted Rolling Stone's comic of the year. Hicks even mocked that he was gone all year and won US comic of the year. If that was any indication of where he should take his career he should just be gone forever.

Odd things is it took him dying to get the fame he has now. So his words were kinda true. He's gone forever and that blew up his career.

- Oni


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Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3251
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 174 of 269 (559143)
05-07-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by onifre
05-06-2010 6:30 PM


Now that I'm dead, I can finally make a living
Odd things is it took him dying to get the fame he has now.

Now That I Am Dead

Double click on title or highlight title and click play button to play.

John French wrote the tune (and does lead vocals?) in the context of the French Frith Kaiser Thompson group. One of the lines is what I put in the subtitle.

John French - Long time drummer with Captain Beefheart.
Fred Frith - British avant-guitarist etc., co-founder of Henry Cow group.
Henry Kaiser - US avant guitarist.
Richard Thompson - Fairport Convention etc.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add link to FFKT at allmusic.com.


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dronester
Member
Posts: 1123
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 175 of 269 (559195)
05-07-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Modulous
05-05-2010 1:06 PM


TENTATIVE gender humor survey
Hi Mod,

I think it would be cool and most appropriate to create a survey and then analyse it in the EvC forum as sort of a class/community project.

However, my single concern about this type of survey is not enough people, especially woman, would participate to reach an accurate conclusion. (that women might not care to take such a survey would be indicative of something [maybe perceived male biased questions?], but mostly would just indicate that the forum has so few female participants)

Except for question #4, I think it would be best to include only closed-ended answers for ease of analysis.

And I think a new thread would alert participants who may not be re-checking this thread.

Per your and Straggler's suggestions, the survey might have the following questions:

1. What sex are you: M F

2. What type of humor do you most enjoy: LOWBROW HIGHBROW ALL NONE

3. How important do you rate your partner's humor: LOW MEDIUM HIGH

4. Why (one brief sentence please)?

Can you or anyone else fine-tune/expand/compact these questions before we start? Any flaws I am missing?

Thanks.

drnstr

Edited by dronester, : clarity


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2173
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 176 of 269 (559227)
05-07-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by dronester
04-30-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Gender and Humor
PS: Just watched Murder by Death last night. Watched it a million times, but I still manage to laugh.

To be truthful, I had seen it when it first came out and was not very much amused. I had loved Neil Simon's earlier stage works redone to film (eg, "Odd Couple"), but his film screenplays just didn't work for me.

Similarly, I only remember one scene from his play on Bogey detective films, The Cheap Detective, which I have likewise only seen once when it was first released. Searching on YouTube.com in order to share that one scene with a fellow Lindy hopper, that one scene is missing:

Parody of the scene in Casablanca where the French and the Germans in Rick's American Cafe (also to be found in Zihuatanejo, next to Ixtapa, on the same block just north of Casa Tequila) hold a singing duel of their respective national anthems, Deutschland ber Alles and La Marseillaise. In Cheap Detective, the French and Germans do their thing as before, then the spotlight falls on Peter Falk and Eileen Brennen who harmonize beautifly acapella:

quote:
When the deep purple falls
Over sleepy garden walls
And the stars begin
To flicker in the sky
Through the mist of a memory
You wander back to me
Breathing my name with a sigh.

Big Band ber Alles!

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!

T'ain't What You Do, It's the Way That You Do It

Burn your leather on the floor, grab anybody's daughter!

Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.


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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 5720
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 177 of 269 (559251)
05-07-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by onifre
05-05-2010 6:02 PM


onifre writes:

quote:
Here's a video (sorry Drone) of Patrice Oneal breaking down what can be funny.

Well, no, not really. It's a video of him getting upset that a bad joke was called out. The only point he had was that all topics have the potential for humor in them and we cannot declare something incapable of being made fun of. It might be extremely difficult to do so, but that's different from being absolute about it.

Everything else was him being a sexist prick.

quote:
Btw, I hate this lady.

Indeed, she didn't have much to contribute, either, but her attempted point is closer to reality: If you cross the line far enough and often enough, then whining that you were "only making a joke" doesn't fly. Actions have consequences. That you thought you were being funny and that some people may have laughed doesn't change the fact that sometimes, you're just being a jerk.

This is hardly a free speech issue. Your right to tell a joke does not come with a right to an audience and someone else's nickel to promote it.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 5720
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 178 of 269 (559252)
05-07-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by onifre
05-05-2010 4:53 PM


onifre writes:

quote:
Fine then, name 10 more female STAND UP comics that didn't make the list...

Here's a baker's dozen, just off the top of my head:

Rita Rudner
Cathy Ladman
Liz Winstead
Caroline Rhea
Suzanne Westenhoefer
Rosie O'Donnell
Margaret Cho
Janeane Garafalo
Susie Essman
Lea Delaria
Kathy Griffin
Mo'Nique
Lily Tomlin

And you brought up Judy Gold, who slipped my mind.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by onifre, posted 05-05-2010 4:53 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 179 of 269 (559256)
05-07-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Rrhain
05-07-2010 9:49 PM


Well, no, not really. It's a video of him getting upset that a bad joke was called out.

Well, no, you're clearly listening with a bias if that's what you're opinion is. All he is saying is that her opinion of what "funny" is is irrelevant because she has nothing to do with the business of being funny.

He could careless about a bad joke being called out, comics call out bad jokes all the time. We make fun of them. Have you ever watched the Joe Rogan vs Carlos Mencia video, where Rogan calls out Mencia for stealing? Just like in science, comics police themselves. So this had nothing to do with a joke. This had to do with that lady thinking she knows what's right and wrong to say on the air because she feels she can speak for the public.

Everything else was him being a sexist prick.

He IS a sexist prick, watch his stand up. He has no problem being up front about it. But that has nothing to do with it. They asked HIM to be on the show not the other way around. They knew who they were bringing on to deal with that twat.

If you cross the line far enough and often enough, then whining that you were "only making a joke" doesn't fly.

Cross the line? What line? Who declared there was a line? What if our lines differ, who's line do we go by?

If you don't like what O & A say on THEIR show then change the station - especially on satellite.

But more important, who the (curse word*) are you to say there is a line to be crossed? That's why jokes are considered "wrong to say," because people think their feelings mean something to the rest of us.

Your right to tell a joke does not come with a right to an audience and someone else's nickel to promote it.

Agreed. But when the market speaks, as in the case with Howard Stern and Opie & Anthony, and people say they like the show and listen, then who are you or anyone else to think your opinion or taste in humor matters?

This is a free speech issue within the context of O & A's show and them being free to do and say whatever they feel is funny on THEIR show over satellite radio. Her taste in humor, or anyone elses, shouldn't interfere with that.

* waiting on the curse word ruling.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 5720
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 180 of 269 (559284)
05-08-2010 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by onifre
05-07-2010 10:31 PM


onifre responds to me:

quote:
Well, no, you're clearly listening with a bias if that's what you're opinion is.

Ooh! We get to play armchair psychologist! Neato! Let's see what I can do:

Well, no, you're clearly too close to the subject matter and are taking it personally, revealing your own misogyny.

Now that you've had your chance to wave your dick at me....

quote:
All he is saying is that her opinion of what "funny" is is irrelevant because she has nothing to do with the business of being funny.

Which is a bullshit argument. As the audience, she has everything to do with the business of being funny. All performance is a connection with the audience and if the response is that you've laid a turd, then that's what you've done no matter how much you may believe in your work.

That he has such disrespect for the audience is indicative of him being a poor performer. At no time during his rant did he defend the actual joke. As I said, his only point was that being absolute about a topic being "not funny" is wrong. But at no point could he describe why this particular instance wasn't an example of the misogyny that it was being accused of. His only defense was, "It's a joke!" as if that makes a difference.

quote:
This had to do with that lady thinking she knows what's right and wrong to say on the air because she feels she can speak for the public.

And the response to that is to show the specifics of why she got it wrong, not to throw a hissy fit and claim that she has no sense of humor. Look, I'm very sorry about his penis but until he can show why the joke isn't part of the problem, he's only showing that he's just as much of a sexist prick.

quote:
He IS a sexist prick, watch his stand up.

Which means he has nothing to do with the business of being funny. He wants to be able to spout any vile thought that crosses his mind without there being any consequences to what he's saying. That isn't comedy. That's sociopathy.

This isn't about being "safe" or "edgy" or "having the courage to go there." And I'm not even going to try and say that comedy is a "search for truth" (though that is a very good source of comedic material). This is about someone pretending that an act of cruelty is something other than that and accusing the object of that cruelty of "lacking a sense of humor."

I'm reminded of DeGeneres' bit about kidding:

quote:
They asked HIM to be on the show not the other way around. They knew who they were bringing on to deal with that twat.

Indeed. They asked a sexist prick to deal with an offended person. There wasn't going to be anything of substance said anywhere. This was nothing more than a media stunt by Fox News (no, really...Fox? Fox descended to being a whore for controversy?) They were both on the defensive and the host was doing everything he could to keep the discussion away from anything of value and on emotional outbursts as if that could help us understand what was going on. If they wanted to live up to their slogan of "We distort, you comply"...er..."We report, you decide," they would have actually talked about the specifics of the case, the context in which the joke was made, social ramifications, etc.

Instead, they got an antagonizer and the victim. Yeah, that'll be fruitful. Clearly, she wasn't up to this discussion either. She didn't want to discuss the specifics but simply wanted to wag fingers with a holier-than-thou attitude. She did her side no service with her behaviour. She was out of her league and got walked all over.

But that doesn't mean her failure was his win.

quote:
Cross the line? What line?

The line of legitimizing bigotry.

quote:
Who declared there was a line?

The audience. They're the final authority, after all.

quote:
What if our lines differ, who's line do we go by?

That would have been an interesting conversation to have. Too bad Fox decided that it would be better to join in the misogyny rather than discuss the question.

quote:
If you don't like what O & A say on THEIR show then change the station - especially on satellite.

There we go again with the idea that people should be free from consequences for their actions.

quote:
But more important, who the (curse word*) are you to say there is a line to be crossed?

Because I'm the audience. That's my job. And the fact that you don't understand that shows that you really don't understand what the job of a performer is. You have to take the audience into account. It's one of the big differences between recorded and live performances.

quote:
That's why jokes are considered "wrong to say," because people think their feelings mean something to the rest of us.

And that you don't think they do shows you're not a comic.

You're a narcissist. You want to be able to insult and denigrate people without any blowback. And if you truly didn't care what other people thought, then you wouldn't complain about their reaction. The fact that you're whining shows that you're not exactly being truthful.

quote:
This is a free speech issue within the context of O & A's show and them being free to do and say whatever they feel is funny on THEIR show over satellite radio.

You mean they own Sirius/XM? Strange, I thought they were employees of the company. As such, they are subject to the regulations of their employer.

The right to free speech does not come with the right to an audience and it certainly doesn't come with a right to someone else's money for your soapbox. If their actions on their show cause a problem for the company, the company has every right to respond, including firing them.

This is the same pathetic whine Laura Schlessinger had when she was trying to get a television show: How dare the audience go to the sponsors to inform them of what she was saying! How dare the audience respond to what the performer says! How dare anybody point out that actions have consequences!

You want the right to be a prick without facing the consequences of being one.

Get used to disappointment.

quote:
Her taste in humor, or anyone elses, shouldn't interfere with that.

On the contrary: The audience has everything to do with it and will always interfere because that is the entire point behind performance:

To connect to the audience.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by onifre, posted 05-07-2010 10:31 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by onifre, posted 05-08-2010 12:17 PM Rrhain has responded
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 05-08-2010 1:21 PM Rrhain has not yet responded
 Message 183 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-08-2010 1:33 PM Rrhain has responded

    
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