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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 46 of 271 (559386)
05-09-2010 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Blue Jay
05-08-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Bluejay writes:

Im confused as to why youre the one complaining about this when its the evolutionists on this thread that I am accusing of spreading misinformation. My message was a correction of some things said by evolutionists that resulted in a really weird and confusing discussion about the differences between reptiles and dinosaurs.

I got that, Bluejay, though you, nevertheless, attempt to debunk my premise rather than to refute the fact that the evidence of resemblences lends support to my extrapolation from the Genesis premise moreso than the evolution premise.

-----

Bluejay writes:

buzsaw writes:


One of the problems with your premise as to what happened to the dinos is that all (I say all) of the dinosaur species disappeard exclusively of the other reptiles which co-existed with the dinos.


Can you explain for me what you mean by this? I am currently under the impression that (1) dinosaurs can go extinct without causing my worldview any problems and (2) the coexistence of dinosaurs with the types of animals that survived the dinosaur extinction is strong evidence that these animals are not the same as dinosaurs.

Sure. I repeat: That they co-existed with pre-cursed dinosaurs and cursed parent dinos of the degenerated types supports the Biblical model, given that the Biblical model implies a very long lifespan of the parent and pre-cursed dinos.

My position is not that the degenerate types are one and the same as the dinos. They are vastly different by design, due to the curse, nevertheless co-existing with their dino parents and precursed dinos.

Your problem remains: why did the alleged Ice Age allegedly render exclusively the dinos extinct, leaving the other co-existing reptiles alive and well to flourish and survive. That is your position. No?

Bluejay writes:

It seems like I have to remind you in every thread that Im a Mormon. I would be quite happy to acknowledge evidence for Gods existence if it could be shown to be genuine.

Can you try to remember this for next time, please?

My apologies, Bluejay. That you (as I understand) reject ID in favor of evolution makes it hard for one to remember that you are a theist. I can't, for the life of me, understand how a professed theist can deny ID, if that's indeed your worldview, but nevertheless, I'll try hard to remember that you are a theist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Blue Jay, posted 05-08-2010 10:30 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2010 12:10 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Blue Jay, posted 05-09-2010 12:58 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 70 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2010 4:48 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 92 by Blue Jay, posted 05-10-2010 3:32 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 47 of 271 (559387)
05-09-2010 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluescat48
05-08-2010 11:15 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
bluescat48 writes:

If I was wading "knee deep in in evidence of a higher intelligence," then there would be evidence and thus I could accept that, but since there is no such "wading evidence" I stand pat. The problem with the creationist is, rather than show evidence that their ideas are correct, they continually simply try to debunk evolution, the big bang etc. Debunking science doesn't prove creation. It would simply mean that there was some other source, you would still have to show evidence to show that creation was that other source.

What, Bluescat? You have yet to refute the evidence I have been claiming. What, specifically (I say specifically) are your thoughts on my alleged evidence?

Edited by Buzsaw, : change is to are


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by bluescat48, posted 05-08-2010 11:15 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2010 1:52 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 05-09-2010 6:53 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3943
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 48 of 271 (559389)
05-09-2010 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 12:04 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
My apologies, Bluejay. That you (as I understand) reject ID in favor of evolution makes it hard for one to remember that you are a theist. I can't, for the life of me, understand how a professed theist can deny ID, if that's indeed your worldview, but nevertheless, I'll try hard to remember that you are a theist.

The vast majority of evolutionists by far being theists, it seems odd to me that you, Buz, believe evolution and ID to be incompatible.

The Theory of Evolution does not require an intelligent designer, much in the way that a computer does not require a floppy drive. That doesn't make the two incompatible in the least.

Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member
Posts: 2613
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 49 of 271 (559391)
05-09-2010 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 12:04 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi, Buzsaw.

Buzsaw writes:

...the evidence of resemblences lends support to my extrapolation from the Genesis premise more so than the evolution premise.

I contest this claim. Resemblances between different types of organisms is literally the hallmark of evolution. Just like people who are related typically look alike, so do related species of organisms look alike.

I have read Genesis many times in my life, and Im not sure what part of that book is in any way supported by animals of different species showing hallmarks of relatedness with other species.

-----

Buzsaw writes:

My position is not that the degenerate types are one and the same as the dinos. They are vastly different by design, due to the curse, nevertheless co-existing with their dino parents and precursed dinos.

So, you believe that lizards look like lizards today because of the curse.
But, they also looked like lizards before the curse, when they coexisted with dinosaurs?

This is my understanding of what youre writing. It directly contradicts itself, and I therefore find it unsatisfactory.

You are welcome to show me what Ive misunderstood, but this really seems to be what youre saying.

-----

Buzsaw writes:

I can't, for the life of me, understand how a professed theist can deny ID...

Theism is a personal belief that I have always had since I was a child.
The empirical evidence I have seen in the world around me currently seems to contradict my personal beliefs in several ways.
I am not ready to fully reject my personal belief in deity yet, because I do not feel that it has been entirely ruled out, but it would be dishonest and irrational of me to let my personal beliefs overrule real evidence.

Sure, it seems so bizarre for a person to go against their own gut feelings and impressions, but this is what honest pursuit of knowledge requires. Id like to think Im getting better at it as I go, but only time will tell how well Ive learned my lessons.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3087
Joined: 08-12-2009
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 271 (559397)
05-09-2010 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 12:08 AM


Here is a response you your "evidence"


"The Bible was written to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go" -Galileao
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 12:08 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 10484
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 51 of 271 (559406)
05-09-2010 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
05-08-2010 6:56 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
quote:

Thanks, Paul; thanks much () for citing this, further evidence of the veracity of the Genesis record and the Buzsaw Hypothesis

It doesn't support either. Indeed, the "Buzsaw Hypothesis" does not support the veracity of Genesis. Genesis describes the serpent as a single individual, and it is that individual that is punished. Not a massive array of species.

quote:

My position right here on this thread, as well as in archived threads has always been that they co-existed for many centuries, in that the offspringegg hatched short legged reptiles became the altered members of the reptillians.

Well you'll be glad to know that it refutes THAT version too.

This fossil snake is dated as 92 million years old. So nakes and dinosaurs co-existed for more than 25 MILLION years.

This fossil snake was found eating a newly hatched dinosaur, so obviously dinosaurs were still breeding true while snakes were around.

And let me point out yet again that dinosaurs are NOT closely related to snakes. Saying that they are both "reptiles" is NOT evidence for the Buzsaw "hypothesis".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 6:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12096
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 52 of 271 (559407)
05-09-2010 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
05-08-2010 9:58 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
One of the problems with your premise as to what happened to the dinos is that all (I say all) of the dinosaur species disappeard exclusively of the other reptiles ...

But this is not true. The KT event also saw the end of the mosasaurs, pterosaurs, and plesiosaurs, not to mention other more trivial losses, such as 20% of turtle species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 9:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 12821
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 53 of 271 (559412)
05-09-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 12:08 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:

What, Bluescat? You have yet to refute the evidence I have been claiming.

It's important to use the right terminology. You claim to have presented evidence, but I just read all eleven of your messages in this thread and I saw no evidence presented. What I saw was a fanciful story and frequent resort to arguments that boil down to, "You only believe that because of your worldview."

So let's see some evidence. You can start with evidence for the "curse."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 12:08 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:35 AM Percy has responded

    
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 54 of 271 (559415)
05-09-2010 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
05-09-2010 6:53 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:

So let's see some evidence. You can start with evidence for the "curse."

The only evidence perse that I have for the curse is what I've presented. I have cited the similarities of the respective dinos to the respective belly crawler types as per the Genesis record which depicts the shortening of legs and physiology of the serpent kind to be adapted to what is observed.

Percy, I see where none of that has been effectively refuted If more than that is required by you, I guess I'm finished with this thread.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 05-09-2010 6:53 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 05-09-2010 9:47 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 12821
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 55 of 271 (559416)
05-09-2010 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 9:35 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:

I have cited the similarities of the respective dinos to the respective belly crawler types as per the Genesis record which depicts the shortening of legs and physiology of the serpent kind to be adapted to what is observed.

The only other message in the thread mentioning the curse in the context of "belly crawlers" is Message 20 where you say:

Buzsaw in Message 20 writes:

Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence.

You presented no evidence for a curse, nor have you even defined it. Just from reading this I would gather that a curse is something that makes your legs shorter. How was it established that this is what a curse does? How does one effect a curse? Have curses ever been observed directly, and if not, what form does the evidence for curses take?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:35 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 10:53 AM Percy has responded

    
Malcolm
Member
Posts: 143
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 56 of 271 (559417)
05-09-2010 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
05-08-2010 7:18 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Apatosaurus, the Sinclair Oil trade mark, has the head and long tail features of snake, quite unlike reptile alligator and his bumpy torsal resembling his look alike dino, previously cited.

However the long tail and neck of the apatosaurus has an anatomy very different from that of snakes. Specifically there is no ribs present in the neck or the tail, unlike snakes whose ribs extend the entire length of their body.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 7:18 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 11:04 AM Malcolm has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 57 of 271 (559419)
05-09-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
05-09-2010 9:47 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:

You presented no evidence for a curse, nor have you even defined it. Just from reading this I would gather that a curse is something that makes your legs shorter. How was it established that this is what a curse does? How does one effect a curse? Have curses ever been observed directly, and if not, what form does the evidence for curses take?

Buzsaw premise of the Buzsaw thesis:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field...........
Genesis 3:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The premise of my thesis is that a beast of the field which walked on relatively long legs was cursed because one of it's kind, evidently coerced by Satan, deceived the woman into the original sin.

The Buzsaw thesis has it that some existing beast, therefore must be evidenced in the fossil record. The evidence must be of the serpent kind. The degenerated belly crawling descendent of the dino prototype implicates significant other physiological changes relative to type and prototype.

Since the ancient language of the Genesis record has no word for the English word, reptile, context clearly implies reptile and serpent to be interchangeable terms depicting all forms of reptiles.

As observed, the dinosaur serpent kind is the one and only type that would apply to the Genesis record relative to the curse, which is the Buzsaw premise.

Note: The Genesis account of the curse is not evidence. It is the Buzsaw premise from which the Buzsaw thesis is derived.

The evidence for the Buzsaw thesis is that the relatively long legged serpent kind, the dinos are the observeable type that fits what the Biblical record implicates, a long legged serpent/reptile type.

The evidence presented has been two dyno prototypes, one being a prototype of alligator and the other a prototype of snake, the former having the relative (I say relative) shape, dorsal lumpy physiology, color and appearance of alligator and the other having the relative (I say relative) smooth dorsal, head , long tail etc appearance of snake. Others could likely be cited but these two come to mind off hand.

The Buzsaw thesis goes on to compare this thesis to that of the evolutionist, being that as per Bluejay, the similarities which I have attributed to the Genesis record are applicable to the evolutionary model.

Buzsaw has aired the problem of why the entire dino species, both large and small became extinct during the alleged Ice Age, whereas the rest of the serpent kind survived and flourished after having co-existing for a long period of time and after having endured the same harsh and deadly conditions of the alleged Ice Age. For that reason, the Buzsaw thesis argues that the Biblical record relative to this specific event more scientifically and logically interprets the observed evidence cited in the Buzsaw thesis.

The Buzsaw thesis on Dinos, as well, makes a whole lot more sense than that of evangelicals like ICR and Ken Ham, etc who's thesis is that dinos survived the flood, having been aboard Noah's alleged ark. The Buzsaw thesis is that no dinosaur types (prototypes of the cursed degenerated types) survived the alleged flood and that the degenerated ones having a different physiology of their prototypes were the only ones aboard the alleged ark.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 05-09-2010 9:47 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 05-09-2010 11:47 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 58 of 271 (559420)
05-09-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Malcolm
05-09-2010 10:11 AM


Re: Dino Serpents
Malcolm writes:

However the long tail and neck of the apatosaurus has an anatomy very different from that of snakes. Specifically there is no ribs present in the neck or the tail, unlike snakes whose ribs extend the entire length of their body.

Malcolm, the Buzsaw thesis calls for significant physiological changes in the types from the prototypes. As I noted, this was due to the significantly different environs of the belly crawler from the relative long legged creature.

Apatosaurus, having long legs, required bone structure in the neck and tail so as to manuver the neck and tail where as the type which it prototyped, being a belly crawler need none, the land surface supporting it's head and entire body. The similarities lie in the appearance of the dorsal, head and tail as previously noted.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Malcolm, posted 05-09-2010 10:11 AM Malcolm has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-09-2010 12:09 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 168 by Malcolm, posted 05-14-2010 11:49 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 12821
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 59 of 271 (559421)
05-09-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 10:53 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:

Note: The Genesis account of the curse is not evidence.

Can we therefore agree that there is no evidence for "the curse" or for the effects of curses?

If so, then how can you imply a causal relationship between "the curse" and any observations you might make about the natural world?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 10:53 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 1:56 PM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12096
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 60 of 271 (559422)
05-09-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 11:04 AM


Re: Dino Serpents
The similarities lie in the appearance of the dorsal, head and tail as previously noted.

Yeah, they both had heads, backbones, and tails.

But if you want to convince me that snakes evolved from dinosaurs you'll have to do a bit better than that. How about showing me some intermediate forms? Vestiges of dinosaurian features in snakes? Genetic evidence which puts snakes closer to crocodiles (close relatives of dinosaurs) than to lizards (the clade in which snakes actually lie)?

If you want to rewrite the history of evolution, shouldn't you have a little bit of evidence for doing so?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 11:04 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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