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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 607 (559278)
05-08-2010 2:16 AM


JRTjr mentioned he would like to discuss Genesis chapter 1 and 2 with Rockondon.

I love to talk about Genesis so I am proposing this topic to do so.

In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.

In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.

The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.

I will start the discussion with Genesis 1:1

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is a declarative statement of completed action.

I do not know when the beginning was.

All I know is in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and it was a completed product there was nothing that had to be created as God had created it to be inhabited.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

The Hebrew word tohuw translated vain here is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 describing the condition of the earth at that time.

Therefore Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 does not explain what took place in Genesis 1:1.

That should do to begin the discussion.

God Bless,

Bible Study please.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:26 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 12 by tesla, posted 05-09-2010 8:59 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 6 of 607 (559359)
05-08-2010 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
05-08-2010 7:26 PM


Re: Theory
Hi Flyer75,

Flyer75 writes:

Obviously I don't agree with this "theory".

What are you calling a theory?

Theory definition, a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena:

Is Genesis 1:1 a theory?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Do you dispute the heaven and the earth was created in the beginning?

Do you dispute that this is a declarative statement?

Do you dispute that the Hebrew verb denotes a completed action?

Do you dispute that Isaiah said God did not create it tohuw (vain) but to be inhabited?

Flyer75 writes:

Two, this "gap"

Where was a gap affirmed?

Flyer75 writes:

Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.

Lets finish verse 1 before we proceed to verse 2.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 05-08-2010 7:26 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 607 (559469)
05-09-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
05-09-2010 7:52 PM


Re: Length
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

how long is a piece of string? no one knows.

What does the length of a piece of string have to do with how long it is from morning to evening and then evening to morning?

Peg writes:

It must have been a hell of a long time though.

Why did it must have been a long time?

There is no evidence of such in the Bible.

Moses writes:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God said the end of the first light period and the end of the first dark period was the first day.

Did Moses not know what he was talking about?

Did God lie to Moses?

I have heard all your explanations for long periods of time. The problem is there is no place in the Bible that supports your argument.

If you have the end of a light period and the end of a dark period with the following morning you have a day.

Unless you call God a liar.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 05-09-2010 7:52 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 12:09 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 607 (559471)
05-09-2010 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by caldron68
05-09-2010 7:27 PM


Re: Time
Hi caldron68,

caldron68 writes:

How much time passed between the 3rd and 4th day Peg?

I am not Peg but I will answer your question.

No time passed between the end of day 3 and the beginning of day 4, as the end of one was the beginning of the other.

Now if you want to know how much time passed between day 2 and day 4 then that was a light period and a dark period and unless the rotation of the earth has increased in speed that would be close to 24 hours.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by caldron68, posted 05-09-2010 7:27 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 14 of 607 (559489)
05-09-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by tesla
05-09-2010 8:59 PM


Re: question
Hi tesla long time no see,

tesla writes:

Could you tell me the number of years that the bible add up to in its generations from adam to now? Is it four million years? I have forgotten. But i seem to remember there was an agreed time station.

Since adam is a transliteration of the Hebrew word for mankind you would have to specify which mankind you was talking about.

If you are talking about the man that was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 there are no recorded generations of him or his descendants.

If you are talking about the man called into existence at the same time as the woman in Genesis 1:27 there is some question as to the exact amount of time but it is caculated at about 6030 years.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by tesla, posted 05-09-2010 8:59 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by tesla, posted 05-10-2010 12:20 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 17 of 607 (559576)
05-10-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peg
05-10-2010 12:09 AM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

the word yom does support it because yom has many meanings and is used figuratively througout the bible including in genesis.

What does the different uses of yom have to do with the end of a light period at evening and the end of a dark period at the beginning of light being a day as declared by God?

Peg writes:

The only thing to consider is why geneis says their came to be 'evening and there came to be morning a first day' thus putting 'evening' first.

The reason you have evening is because a light period has come to an end.

The only reason for having a morning is the end of a dark period.

Peg writes:

The evening is a period without light,

Actually evening is the period between the light period and the dark period.

Peg writes:

as you know, Gen 1:2 begins with 'the earth was formless and void and there was darkness and Gods active force/holy spirit began moving to and fro over the surface of the waters'

I know no such thing.

I know the earth was created in Genesis 1:1

I know there had to be light to grow all the vegetation we pump out of the ground in the form of natural gas, and oil and the coal we dig up.

I know that in Genesis 1:2 it was evening time.

I know that to have an evening you must have the end of a light period.

I know according to the original texts that the earth had become uninhabitable in Genesis 1:2.

Peg writes:

As there are no indicators of exactly when this evening began, it must have begun when Gods holy spirit began acting on the waters when the earth was in the dark & void state and before there was any light.

There can be no evening without the ending of a light period.

Peg writes:

It was at some time during that first 'day' that God said 'let there be light'....before that it was just darkness. Then, with the arrival of the light, the day came to its conclusion.

It was in the evening God said "let there be light" then He divided that light from the darkness and when the light reappeared the following morning that concluded the first day.

Peg writes:

So with that in mind, its reasonable to conclude that the initial dark period is an 'evening' of an indeterminable length.

Well at least there is one thing we can agree on.

I agree that the period of darkness we find at Genesis 1:2 is of an undetermined period of time.

However that evening had to follow a period of light or it could not be called evening. It would have just been called night.

Will you agree that if there was a light period of an undeterminable amount of time that there would have been ample time for all the fossils we have found and for the production of all the vegetation that produced all the natural gas, oil, and coal that has been formed.

All this happening without a conflict with the observed evidence that science has produced.

The day age theory you hold is not compatible with the scientific evidence we have.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 12:09 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 8:29 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 260 by JRTjr, posted 06-06-2010 4:40 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 19 of 607 (559635)
05-10-2010 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
05-10-2010 8:29 PM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

Considering genesis first says there was evening, why do you assume the morning must have come first?

Well if Genesis 1:1 was not there I could agree with you.

But Genesis 1:1 is there that means the heaven and the earth had been created prior to Genesis 1:2.

Do you want me to believe that God, the angels, and devil wandered around in darkness from the beginning until Genesis 1:3.

John writes:

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John writes:

Revelation 21:5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

In the new heaven and earth God will give the light.

What makes you think that God did not provide light in Genesis 1:1?

Peg writes:

this is why i dont believe the 'evening and morning' is to be taken literally.

You believe it because it fits your worldview. Genesis does not support your assertion neither does science.

Do you have any answers to the sentences that ended in a question mark.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 8:29 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 9:50 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 21 of 607 (559808)
05-11-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
05-10-2010 9:50 PM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

I've never heard the view that the spirits dwell in our physical universe, so if thats what you mean, i have no idea how to respond. I cant imagine how our physical universe would have any bearing on the realm in which they dwell in.

You have never heard that the devil, satan is the God of this world. Who offered the kingdom to Jesus if He would bow and worship him.

Paul writes:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The Greek word transliterated synistçmi means to put together.

So the universe is held together by he power of Jesus Christ. It is not held together by dark matter but an energy force that man does not understand nor will man find Him. If they do find the energy that holds the universe together they will have found Jesus.

Peg writes:

There is plenty of phyical light in the universe, but God does not reside in the physical universe.

The Holy Spirit indwells every born again child of the King.

Jesus holds the universe together by keeping everything in place.

How can either do their job if they don't reside in the physicl universe?

Peg writes:

Genesis is talking about the planet....a planet that was in darkness

I agree that Genesis 1:2 is talking about a planet that is covered with water and in darkness.

The question is how did it get in darkness when God is light?

Your answer is that it was that way for billions of years as God created it as found in Genesis 1:2.

But if it had existed in darkness all that time why do we find fossils that are billions of years old? How did the vegetation grow that was required to produce the natural gas, oil, and coal we use as energy today?

If Genesis 1:2 is interperted correctly there is no problem as it would say "But the earth came to be empty and desolate."

That would explain why the period of time God declared the first day was only 12 hours long, as it lasted from evening until morning.

If Genesis 1:1 took place in the extended light portion of that day that would give a complete day. Composed of a light period and a dark period as all the the other 6 days recorded in Genesis was.

Peg writes:

God was not dwelling on the earth was he?

God is all seeing and all knowing. To do that He must be everywhere all the time.

If He is not on earth how does He see and know? How does the Holy Spirit indwell those who are born again?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 9:50 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 05-11-2010 7:44 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 23 of 607 (559926)
05-12-2010 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
05-11-2010 7:44 PM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

yes i have, but not during the time the earth was being created is what i meant.

Well the heaven and the earth was created in the beginning whenever that was.

Peg writes:

and there was darkness upon its surface"

I agree there was darkness on the surface of the earth in Genesis 1:2.

That does not mean there was darkness on the earth in Genesis 1:1.

Science tell us that there was several years of darkness on the earth when the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event happened, 65 million years ago.

It was caused by a massive asteroid .

mpact of a large earth-crossing asteroid would inject about 60 times the object's mass into the atmosphere as pulverized rock; a fraction of this dust would stay in the stratosphere for several years and be distributed worldwide. The resulting darkness would suppress photosynthesis, and the expected biological consequences match quite closely the extinctions observed in the paleontological record.
Source

Peg writes:

I believe the realm they dwell in is a different realm to our physical realm...we could call it a different dimension.

I did state in the OP that the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text would be the final authority for this thread. I did not include what Peg believes.

You can believe anything you want.

Peg writes:

God can send his holy spirit, which is his active force/power, much like a power station can send the energy it creates hundreds or thousands of miles away...he doesnt have to be here to do it.

If the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit it is God, and He dwells in me.

Peg writes:

But just on that point of God residing in the physical universe, no matter how high up into the heavens you fly, or how far you travel into space, you wont see him or any other spirit person....why not?

Until they take on a human form or they are revealed to you they can be 2 inches from your face and you would not see them.

Peg writes:

to your first question, the earth was created along with the universe including all the other planets which means that it must have been here for as long as mars or venus or jupiter or pluto....it existed as a lifeless planet just like them UNTIL God began to work on it. This would explain the age that scientists come up with.

Do you have scripture to support such an assertion? Or is that just another of those things Peg believes?

Peg writes:

The fossils that we find would have come from the animals that God created in the 5th & 6th periods.

Since God said a light period and a dark period constituted a day the only way you can get your millions of years is if the earth was spinning a lot slower at that time. In fact it would almost have to be standing still.

If it was going that slow then when did God speed it up to faster than it is spinning today as it is slowing down now?

Peg writes:

The fact that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago just shows that these 'days' were not literal days but 'ages' or 'eons' of time. The remnents of those animals are the coal/oil and gas that we find in the earth.

The fact that dinosaurs were on the earth millions of years ago means there was light on the earth millions of years ago nothing about your extra long day's and extra long nights.

But since half of the earth is dark all the time how would anything grow or survive the long night's as the night would be millions of years long?

And for your information the coal/oil, and natural gas come from compressed vegetation.

Peg writes:

but gen 1:1 says that 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' thus showing that the earth was created along with the rest of the heavenly bodies. No one can say how long it existed for before gen 1:2 comes into play.

And according to Peg existed in darkness.

Peg writes:

He certainly is all seeing and all knowing, but he does not have to physically be here on earth to see and hear. If he was here on earth, we would not survive his presence....he even said to Moses "No man may see me and yet live"

Jesus said: "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father".

John writes:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

I know you have a real problem with that.

Peg writes:

Its his power that prevents him from dwelling here on earth. The way that he sees and hears all is by viewing us from his own dwelling place...and he sends out his holy spirit to whereever he needs to in order to accomplish things.

God took on the form of a man we call Jesus and came down to earth, lived and died on the cross to pay our sin debt.

So God has lived on earth in the form of a man and now dwells on earth in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Now can we narrow this down to the OP?

In the OP I said: "In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2."

In Message 10 I asked:

1. What does the length of a piece of string have to do with how long it is from morning to evening and then evening to morning?

2. God said the end of the first light period and the end of the first dark period was the first day.

Did Moses not know what he was talking about?

Did God lie to Moses?

In Message 17 I asked:

1. What does the different uses of yom have to do with the end of a light period at evening and the end of a dark period at the beginning of light being a day as declared by God?

2. What makes you think that God did not provide light in Genesis 1:1?

3. The Holy Spirit indwells every born again child of the King.

Jesus holds the universe together by keeping everything in place.

How can either do their job if they don't reside in the physical universe?

If I am going to learn what you believe and why I need information that you neglect to give. If you make an assertion and I ask for an explanation of that assertion and you don't give it what have we accomplished? Other than wasting a lot of time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 05-11-2010 7:44 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 05-12-2010 6:57 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 25 of 607 (559994)
05-12-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
05-12-2010 6:57 AM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

so that means that we shoudl be able to go up into the heavens/space and see God dwelliing up there.

I dont think i've heard of any astronauts returning to earth with news of seeing God up there....unless i've been living under a rock lol.

I said you could believe anything you wanted to believe.

I did not say because you believe it that it would come to be a fact.

Peg writes:

whenever that was is exactly right...when did God create the sun or moon or planets or solar system or galaxy??? Apparently he created them in the 'beginning' along with the earth as part of that 'beginning'
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens (our sun/solar system/galaxy) and the earth.

Let me get this straight.

The entire solar system was created in Genesis 1:1. I agree.

That would mean that they existed in Genesis 1:2.

That means there would be light prior to Genesis 1:2.

Why was not the light shining at Genesis 1:2?

Could it be that evening had come or that something had happened to obscure the sun from the earth?

Peg writes:

perhaps if you take yom literally, yes it would have been moving pretty slow
but we dont take it literally and genesis does not say that it must be literal. there are more indications that it is figurative for the reason that the 7th day has still not come to an end.

Well God took yom in Genesis chapter 1 literally as He called a light period and a dark period, as the first day, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, and sixth day I find no mention of the evening and morning of the seventh day.

Moses writes:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

The reference to the seventh day says God had ceased His creative work and did no work on the seventh day.

Nowhere does it say that the evening of the seventh day did not come and the morning of the eighth day which would have been our first day of the week Sunday.

Light periods and dark periods determined by the rotation of the earth in reference to the sun have continued from the first day until the present time. At no time has the rotation of the earth changed. There have been two instances where God cause a light period to be extended for Joshua. There was one time the shadow of the sundial was made to run backwards but the rotation of the earth was not effected.

So what uses of yom are you trying to use to say it can be long periods of time?

If you are using a day is the same as a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years the same as a day to God you are barking up the wrong tree.

God is not a creature of time and is not effected by time. You could say eternity is the same as a day and a day the same as eternity to God as God has no past or future. He only has an eternal now.

Peg writes:

1. The different uses of Yom shows that a yom/day could be any length of time. A yom has been used to identify the lifetime of a person in the bible, and that lifetime has been broken up into the 'twilight' and 'dawn' of the persons life.

Yom is translated day or days 2008 times. Each of these refer to a specific day or number of days of a 24 hour period.

Where is yom used to identify the lifetime of a person that it did not say in the days of?

Twilight appears 9 times in the OT and none mention the lifetime of a person. They all refer to the time between sundown and darkness.

Dawn does not appear in the OT but does appear 2 times in the NT. Each time it is referring to the time when the darkness begins to disappear and light appears.

Peg where do you get this stuff from?

Peg writes:

2. Genesis 1:1 is not discussing the subject of light from God. Its an opening remark to the account of the physical creation. What sort of light are you talking about?

The kind of light that would be necessary for the earth that had been created to be inhabited as Isaiah tells us.

Peg writes:

3. I beleive that the holy spirit is upon all born again christians, however i am not a born again christian so it doesnt dwell on me as a permanent gift because i have not been chosen to rule as a king and priest with Christ in heaven. I deeply respect those who have been chosen.

I am sorry to hear you do not have the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you in all truth.

John writes:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Paul writes:

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you have not been born again how do you expect to understand spiritual things?

Paul says you are trying to understand the things of God while you are still a natural person which is an impossibility.

That would explain your confusion of what the Bible says and means.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 05-12-2010 6:57 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 05-13-2010 9:46 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 29 of 607 (560144)
05-13-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Philip
05-13-2010 12:27 PM


-Re: Covenant Creation
Hi Philip,

Philip writes:

the 6 days of 'creation'

Where do you get 6 days of creation from?

Moses writes:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The universe was created in the beginning.

Moses writes:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Whales were created.

Moses writes:

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man and woman was created at the same time.

These three verses are the only verses in which anything was (bara) created in chapter 1 of Genesis.

So where are the other 3 days of creation?

Philip writes:

But "evening and morning" seem scripturally vague, IMHO ... as human minds cannot really comprehend 'time'

What is vague about evening?

What is vague about morning?

Evening is the closing of a light period by darkness beginning.

Morning is the closing of a dark period by light beginning.

Why can the human mind not really comprehend time when time is a concept of the human mind?

Philip writes:

Diurnal clocks seem non-existent until the 4th day:

Are you saying the earth was not rotating on it's axis until the fourth day?

Are you saying all the planets, stars, sun, moon in the universe was in suspended mode until the fourth day?

Wouldn't that be very unscientific.

Philip writes:

Rev 22:2-5 ... yielded her fruit every month: ... And there shall be no night there ... neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light ...

I have no idea why John used month in Rev. 22:2 as time as we know it will not exist at that time. Where there is no man to mark time, time does not exist. God has no clocks as He is eternal existence. When we reach the place in Revelation 22 we will be in our eternal bodies and will not be creatures of time.

Philip writes:

2) Genesis 1-2 are open to wide viewpoints ... and may retain scriptural validity/integrity.

Everybody has an opinion.

The only opinion that counts is the one God has which He had Moses write down for us to understand how the universe and its inhabitants began to exist.

I will admit my view which I am the only one I know of who holds such a view of Genesis chapter 1 and 2 may be wrong. But it has not been refuted.

Philip writes:

... Its just that the obsolete clocks we currently employ may require replacements, re-booting, and/or re-calibration ... after God 'acts'.

God is not a creature of time. God is eternal existence.

Humans are eternal beings in a temporal body. One that will die because of the decision of the man that was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.

When we receive our eternal body we will have been restored to the same state that man was in before he disobeyed God. Time will no longer exist as it is a human concept created by humans.

BTW welcome to the fray.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Philip, posted 05-13-2010 12:27 PM Philip has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Cat Sci, posted 05-13-2010 2:53 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 33 of 607 (560229)
05-13-2010 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Cat Sci
05-13-2010 2:53 PM


Re: Covenant Creation
Hi CS,

Catholic Scientist writes:

Your view requires the listing of people at the end of Gen. 4:

Why?

The only reason I would have to include them is because Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury, put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227.

Was he inspired to divide the text as Moses was to record it.

I am not sure he was not inspired by his own teachings and biases.

Because there is nothing that connects Genesis 4:25, 26 to the preceeding verses as a long period had expired since the man created from the dust of the earth had his two sons.

The preceeding verses had covered the life of Cain and his descendants where a city was built covering 8 generations.

The man in Genesis 5:3 was 120 years old when his son Seth was born.

If he had a son named Cain how old was he when he was born?

If he had a son named Abel how old was he when he was born?

Genesis 4:25 has no conjunction at the beginning of the verse to connect it to anything. IOW there is no 'and' there.

Moses used yacaph in Genesis 4:2 when he stated: "And she again bare his brother Abel." That 'and' is not in the original either.

yacaph means 1) to add, increase, do again.

So if he was talking about the same thing why did he use `owd in 4:25 which means 1) a going round.

Hebrew linage is traced through the first born.

In Genesis chapter 4 you have the linage of the man formed from the dust of the earth through his firstborn son Cain.

In Genesis chapter 5 you have the linage of the man who was created at the same time as the woman, both in the image of God through his firstborn son Seth.

You have refuted nothing, as your assertions are only assertions.

A good start would be to take the texts and show how 4:25 which follows the linnage of Cain after 8 generations and the man in chapter 5 is still only 120 years old when his son Seth was born if he and Cain had the same father.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Cat Sci, posted 05-13-2010 2:53 PM Cat Sci has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Cat Sci, posted 05-18-2010 12:23 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 36 of 607 (560250)
05-13-2010 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Philip
05-13-2010 7:49 PM


Re: Gen 1
Hi Philip,

I take it this was an answer to my post to you. It would be better to use the reply button when answering a post.

You asked:

Philip writes:

We all adhere to clocks in our puny understanding of "evening and morning". Is there really such a thing as "real time"? Just what is "real time"

Genesis 1:14 tells us God set certain things for signs, seasons, years and days.

Early man had a period of light and a period of darkness.

Early on mankind figured out that the sun caused a shadow and by that shadow he could divide the light period.

Mankind finally came up with the concept of time. Time is determined by the rotation of the earth in relationship to the sun. A year is determined by how long it takes for the earth to circle the sun.

Somebody came up with the idea we could divide the revolution of the earth into almost 24 hours which divided nicely into 60 minutes each hour which divided nicely into 60 seconds in each minute. He then devised a machine to measure each second. Since the 50's the oscillation of a Cesium Atom's Microwave has been the standard for a second.

So yes as far as mankind is concerned time exists.

As far as God is concerned there is only the present He views the beginning and the end all now.

Philip writes:

The 6 days (of creation?) that followed Gen 1.1 ... certainly contain creation design terms ... at least as a child or scientist might readily discern.

Please present those design terms as they are not clear to me. I am neither a child or a scientist so I need convincing that something was (bara) created other than whales, and mankind.

I know from verse 1 the heaven and the earth was (bara) created.

I know from verse 2 it had become uninhabitable as it was covered with water.

I know from verse 3 God caused light to be on the earth. It says nothing about Him (bara) creating the light. He just made it visible.

I know from verse 4 God divided the light from the darkness. It was dark on half of the earth and light on the other half of the earth.

I know from verse 5 God called the light day and the darkness night. It also tells me a light period and a dark period equals one day.

The light period of Genesis 1:1 and the dark period that ended with the light period of the second day was declared the first day.

I know from verse 6, 7, and 8 that God separated the waters from the uplifted waters and called that atmosphere heaven. This is where the birds and our airplanes fly.

I know from verse 8 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the first day and ended with the light period of the third day was the second day.

I know from verse 9 that God caused all the water to gather in one place and let dry land appear as it is shown in my avatar.

I know from verse 10 that God called the dry land earth and the water sea.

So far nothing has been created only rearranged.

I know from verse 11 that God had the earth bring forth grass, herbs, and fruit trees, from their seed which was upon the earth.

I know from verse 12 that the earth obeyed and produced grass, herbs, and fruit trees.

I know from verse 13 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the second day and ended with the light period of the fourth day was the third day.

I know from verse 14 and 15 that God caused visible lights in the heavens to be for signs and seasons, days and years and to give light upon the earth.

I know from verse 16, 17 and 18 that God caused two great lights to be visible on earth one to rule the day and one to rule the night. He also caused the stars to be visible on earth.

Still nothing has been (bara) created they were only made visible on earth.

I know from verse 19 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the third day and ended with the light period of the fifth day was the fourth day.

I know from verse 20 that God caused the waters to bring forth water creatures and fowl to fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Still nothing (bara) created.

I know from verse 21 that God (bara) created great whales.

The first thing created that was not created in Genesis 1:1.

I know from verse 22 that God blessed them and told them to multiply and fill the waters and the fowl to multiply on the earth.

I know from verse 23 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fourth day and ended with the light period of the sixth day was the fifth day.

I know from verse 24 and 25 God called the living creature, cattle, creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. That means they had already existed to come forth after their kind.

I know from verse 26 and 27 that God (bara) created mankind in His image male and female He created them. Did He create 2 or a thousand there is no way to know as the scripture does not say. He gave mankind dominion over the creatures on earth.

I know from verse 28 God blessed them and told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it.

I know from verse 29 that God told them they could eat of every herb bearing seed and every tree that yielded fruit with a seed. No fruit of any tree was forbiden to mankind.

I know from verse 30 that the fowl of the air and every thing that creepeth on the earth that every green herb was given for meat.

I know from verse 31 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fifth day and ended with the light period of the seventh day was the sixth day.

On to chapter 2.

I know from verse 1 everything was finished.

I know from verse 2 that God ceased His preparing and furnishing the earth. God had completed His creative work.

I know from verse 3 that God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. By ceasing His work.

That completes the seven days of Moses as recorded in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.

Philip writes:

Besides, time is relative to both the speed of light and God's omnipotence (and other factors)

What does time have to do with the power of God?

Philip writes:

(Off topic: Genesis 1 is one of the few chapters I've memorized ... Genesis 1 quenches my scientific thirst of origins ... but requires the whole chapter model in addition to vs 1 ... each of the 6 days explains events that answer my hardest scientific inquiries.)

How can those 6 days explain as they only have the earth as less than 7,000 years old and science has it billions of years old?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Philip, posted 05-13-2010 7:49 PM Philip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Philip, posted 05-14-2010 1:43 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 38 of 607 (560274)
05-14-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Peg
05-13-2010 9:46 PM


Re: Yom
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

If you look at some other translators notes,

Why should I look at some other translators notes as the Holy Spirit reveal those things to me when I was 10 years old. I presented the things I have presented here in a prayer meeting in 1949. I was told I did not know what I was talking about and have been every since so it does not bother me now.

Peg writes:

exactly....yet if the days in genesis are literal, why did the 7th day not begin with an evening and end with a morning like the previous 6?

Because the 7th day began with the end of the dark period of the sixth day with the light of the seventh day. Moses just did not complete the ending of the day as God said nothing as He was resting.

Peg writes:

Yom (Hebrew) A day; by extension an age or time period.

God defined yom in verse 5. as a light period and a dark period when He declared that the first day.

God further defined yom in verse 8 when He said the evening of a light period and the morning of the next light period was the second yom.

Peg writes:

Gen 1 uses the first instance of Yom to refere only to the light portion of the day....this is only 12 hours in length.

The same verse 5 that declared the light portion was day also declared that light portion and dark portion that followed was the first yom.

Peg writes:

Gen 1 also calls the light itself 'day'....so this doesnt even have anything to do with 'time'

Time is a concept of man not God. God in verse 5 had a light period He called day. He also added a dark period He called night to the light period which the combination of He called day.

If you disagree that God presented yom as I have stated please correct me as to what God said.

Peg writes:

In Gen 8:22 it calls the 'eternity' of the earth 'days'
For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.

This verse says day and night will never cease all the days of the earth.

If that is not what it says please correct me.

Peg writes:

the Hebrews began their day in the evening

The Hebrews began their day in the evening because of their misunderstanding of Genesis 1:5, for no other reason.

Peg writes:

Sometimes ‘day and night’ only meant a portion of a solar day of 24 hours as Matthew 12:40 shows. Jesus spent only 1 full day (sat) and 2 half days (fri & Sun) in the tomb yet they were called 3 days.

So you accept the Catholic Church teaching about the crucifiction.

Actually Christ was crucified a 9 AM on Wednesday and buried after 3 PM. He was in the earth all night Wed., all day Thur., all night Thur., all day Friday, all night Friday, and most of the day Saturday until the exact time He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday. Three days and three nights exactly 72 hours. Now don't expect me to give you all the particulars of how I know this to be true in this thread we can cover it later in another thread.

Peg writes:

there is also the exression of a day in terms of measuring distances at Numbers 11:31 And a wind burst forth from Jehovah and began driving quails from the sea and letting them fall above the camp about a day’s journey this way and about a day’s journey that way, all around the camp, and about two cubits above the surface of the earth

It is not equating a day with measuring distances.

A day's journey was considered to be 20 miles as that is how far a man can walk in a day.

Peg writes:

And again in prophecy we see how a 'day' is used to stand for one year. Ezekiel 4:6: “You must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you.”
And at Numbers 14:34.
for forty days you spied out the land, you will answer for your errors a day for a year, forty years i have given you

Where do you get all this garbage and why can't you understand what is written in the Bible. I forgot it is spiritually deserned, and you are following a bunch of blind people.

In Ezekiel the house of Judah had disobeyed and Ezekiel was to lie upon his left side for 390 days and when he finished that to lie on his right side for forty days because of the iniquity of the house of Judah. One day for each year of Judah's iniquity was Ezekiel to lay seige to the city, in this fashion.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

This says they were to wander a year for each day they searched the land.

It does not say a day was equal to a year.

Peg writes:

Day is also used with reference to the lifetime of a particular person as is seen at Luke 17:26

Peg writes:

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

When you get in the fifth grade you will probably be able to tell the difference in 1 day which is equal to 24 hours and the days of ICANT which equals 25,960 days which equals 618,968 hours at the present.

Peg writes:

There are so many figurative uses of the word day in the bible that it surprises me no one mentions them. I guess if you are looking for the literal uses of the word its easy to bypass the figurative uses.

Oh but you mention them.

Maybe nobody else mentions them because they only exist in the mind of Peg.

Because you have not presented one instance of a figurative uses yet.

Peg writes:

by listening to and learning from those who have been born again. They are guided by spirit to reveal truth and I am more then happy to listen to them.

I am afraid you have been following people who are worse off than your are. At least you are honest and admit you are following someone who you think is born again. They don't have any idea what the Word of God says. They may know what the Watch Tower says but the Watch Tower is not God even though they claim to be as they are the only ones who know what is right and what is wrong.

Peg writes:

Paul is speaking about people who reject spiritual things...he says "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him"

No Paul is speaking about people who have not been born again and are still a natural man. The natural man will reject the things of the Spirit.

Peg writes:

Paul is speaking about people who reject spiritual things...he says "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him"

The natural man is one who has not been born again.
This man will not accept the things of the Spirit as he is operating in his own strength and understanding. Without the Holy Spirit to lead him and guide him he can have a PHD in everything and still not understand the things of the Spirit.

Education is not enough to understand the things of the Bible. I knew a preacher who could not read or write but he could preach some of the most beautiful sermons anyone ever preached. His wife would read the Bible to him and he memorized it.

The spiritual man is one who has been born again and has the Holy Spirit to lead him and guide him in all truth.

Do not expect to understand the Bible until you are born again.

If you keep following the people you have been following that will never happen.

I would suggest you go to this website and read the book of John it is a KJV Bible. http://bibledatabase.net/html/kjv/index.html

Before you begin to read ask God to give you wisdom and understanding of what you are about to read.

Read the first 3 chapters. If you don't understand the scriptures read them every day praying the same prayer before you start until you do understand it. When you understand those three chapters you should read the rest of the book.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 05-13-2010 9:46 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 05-14-2010 6:12 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 39 of 607 (560275)
05-14-2010 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Philip
05-14-2010 1:43 AM


Re: Gen 1
Hi Philip,

Philip writes:

Gen 1:21 And God created ... every living creature that moveth

It says He bara created great whales.

Everything else mentioned in that verse was accomplished in verse 20.

I don't know if Moses was repeating that or some copyist added it. But the only things created in verse 21 was the whales. Actually large sea monsters.

Philip writes:

Besides time (as we perceive it) ... the firmaments (cosmic) expansion ... enzymes, plants, fish, fowl, and creeping life ... after there kinds ... on up through humanity ... require God's direct design ... either during or after the creation of Gen 1.1. No ToE can account for these creations.

When I get to chapter 2 verse 4 and continue with my message where I stoped in message 36 I think you will understand my concept of creation.

I believe there was a creation in Genesis 1:1 and the 7 days of Moses followed in Genesis 1:2-2:3.

In the OP Message 1 I stated: "In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2."

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Philip, posted 05-14-2010 1:43 AM Philip has not yet responded

  
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