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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 136 of 271 (559886)
05-12-2010 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 1:42 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Please supply your source that I lied in that by and large the dinos became extinct exclusively as a group. It's all over he net, Jonesy, that the dinos are extinct and that the other reptiles by and large did not.
I can't find it "all over the net". For example, googling on "only dinosaurs went extinct" gets four google hits. Three of them are people pointing out that this is rubbish. (One of them was me.) That leaves one person in the world besides you who is ignorant enough to believe it. Do you have a twin brother?
But even if someone had spread crap like that "all over the net", it wouldn't make it true. Paleontologists know of lots and lots of extinct reptiles that weren't dinosaurs. We've named some of them for you. Mosasaurs, pterosaurs, plesiosaurs ... and that's just from the KT event, whereas if you believe orthodox creationist gibberish you must believe that all reptile extinctions were the result of one single extinction event.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 137 of 271 (559905)
05-12-2010 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 10:17 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
quote:
That would have to fall back on flood evidence which would be another topic to explain, in that it would involved discussion of reliability of radiometric dates relative to the possibility of a flood.
In other words it would require dealing with a subject you have repeatedly run away from discussing. Suffice to say that anything you could offer there would be more nonsense.
quote:
Now we're back to square one which again goes into how the observed evidence of the by and large extinction of dinos and the survival of the others is interpreted. I have no other direct evidence. If my understanding is correct, you have no direct evidence that an asteroid wiped out the dinos or whatever event you attribute their extinction to.
We DO have direct evidence of a major meteorite impact at about the right time. More importantly we DO have firm evidence of a mass extinction affecting far more than just the dinosaurs. The only "problem" you could possibly be offering an answer to is why ALL of the dinosaur species at that time (except birds) went extinct while other groups left SOME survivors. But you don't even have a good explanation for THAT. "God decided to curse ALL the dinosaurs" is no better than "they all died in the mass extinction" - you don't offer any reason WHY God would include all dinosaurs in the curse - and it is neither mentioned nor implied in the story. In fact your answer is WORSE because we HAVE solid evidence for the mass extinction, but no significant evidence for your speculations - and a very large amount of evidence AGAINST them. Your "hypothesis" is founded on nothing more than ignorance and the dogma of Biblical literalism.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 138 of 271 (559956)
05-12-2010 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 10:17 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
What is your evidence that dinosaurs lived as recently as 4350 years ago?
That would have to fall back on flood evidence which would be another topic to explain, in that it would involved discussion of reliability of radiometric dates relative to the possibility of a flood.
So your evidence that dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago is the unreliability of radiometric dating? So if radiometric dating had never been invented so that you could point to how unreliable it is you'd have no evidence at all?
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that radiometric had never been invented. What is your evidence that dinosaurs still lived 4350 years ago?
Now we're back to square one which again goes into how the observed evidence of the by and large extinction of dinos and the survival of the others is interpreted.
How is the physiological and genetic evidence interpreted to reach the conclusion that snakes and lizards are the descendants of dinosaurs?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 10:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 139 of 271 (559962)
05-12-2010 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 10:17 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Now we're back to square one which again goes into how the observed evidence of the by and large extinction of dinos and the survival of the others is interpreted.
As something that you've made up in your head which is known for certain to be false.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 11:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 271 (559976)
05-12-2010 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
05-12-2010 8:11 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that radiometric had never been invented. What is your evidence that dinosaurs still lived 4350 years ago?
The evidence remains being what is observed; fossils showing that long legged repiles have become extinct and that a large array of close to earth reptiles thrive abundantly.
This coupled with physical evidence attributed to the flood (another topic) and recorded history becomes inclusive in the thesis. applying the 4350 or so date .
Percy writes:
How is the physiological and genetic evidence interpreted to reach the conclusion that snakes and lizards are the descendants of dinosaurs?
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian, similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types.
So far as the genes, that they would be different is extrapolated from the thesis as cause and effect. Any change in genetically physiology would necessarily be effected by genes.
The change in egg embryo genes, in this case, involves the old debate of ID, which is again, another topic. This thread topic has a lot to do with the ID debate. To address all of the ramifications of the evidence cited, would be impossible in this one thread.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 05-12-2010 8:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 144 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-12-2010 12:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 05-12-2010 1:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 149 by Percy, posted 05-12-2010 4:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 150 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-12-2010 4:23 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 271 (559980)
05-12-2010 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
05-12-2010 8:34 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
DrAdequate writes:
As something that you've made up in your head which is known for certain to be false.
No comment on blind assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-12-2010 8:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-12-2010 6:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 142 of 271 (559982)
05-12-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


snake ancestry
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian, similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types.
Other than 'scaly' and 'has four limbs' - do you have anything more specific to say about their appearance? After all birds are scaly and have four limbs too. And given that some dinosaurs appear to have feathers, as do birds and snakes don't...
Why should we conclude that the descendants of dinosaurs are snakes and not birds. How can we rule out that snakes are descended from non-dinosaur 'reptillian' ancestors?

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 143 of 271 (559986)
05-12-2010 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian, similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types.
The extinct dinosaurs are much more similar to modern birds than they are lizards and snakes.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 271 (559988)
05-12-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
The evidence remains being what is observed; fossils showing that long legged repiles have become extinct and that a large array of close to earth reptiles thrive abundantly.
That couldn't possibly be construed as evidence, that's an assertion based on pure conjecture. Actual evidence refutes your claim, as it is empirically proven through physical evidence that snakes and dinosaurs co-existed.
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian, similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types.
Is it extraordinary that reptiles cladistically share superficial similarities with other reptiles? Even then it begs the question: Do snakes resemble Apatosaurus or Triceratops? Are they related to snakes? Do they resemble one another? Obviously not, which should be an excellent indicator that your thesis is specious at best.
The bottom line is that not only do you not have evidence that humans and dinosaurs co-existed, but there is actual evidence refuting your claim that dinosaurs are really just cursed serpents. At any point in time feel free to post any evidence you that corroborates your extraordinary claim. That would be the best way for you to get from point A to point B.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 145 of 271 (559991)
05-12-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 4:52 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi, Buzz.
Buzsaw writes:
Zen, the fall, according to the Genesis curse account, i.e. non-dino types would not have existed until the time of the curse when the existing dinos laid their eggs. All embryos from then on would be non-dino types.
Except, I can present you with dinosaur eggs that contain dinosaur embryos at the time of the Flood. This source (you may need a paying subscription, but a citation is provided below) shows many dinosaur eggs, one of which contains a dinosaur embryo, dated to a short time before the K-T/Flood.
Within that paper, we find this quote:
quote:
In addition to over 300 mammal and lizard skulls, 20 theropod skeletons (including several adult and juvenile oviraptorids), and many protoceratopsian and ankylosaurid dinosaurs discovered at this locality, at least five types of eggs were found. Many of these were arranged in nests. One egg, from a heavily weathered nest, contains the nearly complete skeleton of an embryonic oviraptorid dinosaur. Also among the broken eggshell fragments in this nest were two tiny skulls (~5 cm long) of a dromaeosaurid theropod, one preserved with eggshell adhering to it.
Dinosaur embryos developing in dinosaur eggs, and newly-hatched dinosaur young, with lizards found nearby, all dated to the same age, is sufficient evidence to disprove your notion that all dinosaurs were cursed to give birth to lizards at some point in history.
Citation: Norell MA et al. (1994). A theropod dinosaur embryo and the affinities of the Flaming Cliffs dinosaur eggs. Science 266 (5186): 779-782.
Edited by Bluejay, : Typographical issues.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 271 (560001)
05-12-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 6:08 PM


just stop
Catholic Scientist writes:
Just so you know... that's impossible.
For a relative uniformist, yes but that would not be the case with the flood.
No, it doesn't matter who its for, the Earth has never been covered in water since mankind has existed. Period. No if's, and's, or but's.
The only reason a person would think that it has, is because they think the Bible says it did (which itself is questionable). But we know it never really happened.
In that case, then neither did the dinos... they're birds now.
Have you been following closely, CS?
Actually, no... I read that you said that dinos and humans coexisted and I just couldn't believe it Now, I've seen things ascribed to you that you didn't technically actually say, so I checked it out. Turns out, for the Flud to have wiped out the dinos would require them coexsting with humans. Not a chance. You're wrong. The Flud did not wipe out the dinos. Just stop already.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 147 of 271 (560005)
05-12-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
quote:
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian, similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types.
In other words you have NO significant evidence that snakes are dinosaur descendants. Your evidence is only evidence of some sort of relationship and most creationists would reject even that (it's far weaker than the evidence that birds are dinosaur descendants, for a start). So it's quite clear that your reason for picking out snakes is not any empirical evidence at all - it is the Genesis story.
So, in fact it turns out that your "hypothesis" is nothing more than an attempt to fit the Genesis story to your cursory knowledge of the facts. You made NO serious attempt to investigate the evidence or even consider what the evidence should look like if your idea was true. All you have is armchair speculation, and you haven't even done a good job of that./

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 148 of 271 (560021)
05-12-2010 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 10:19 PM


Re: Topic Drift
I'm just trying to understand the timeline in your mind and I think that is within the topic. I need to understand where you are.
Are you saying all the species that we say went extinct 250 Million years ago during the Permian event(before Dinosaurs) co-existed with the species we say went extinct 65 million years ago during the KT event around 4350? Do you have evidence for this?

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 149 of 271 (560022)
05-12-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that radiometric had never been invented. What is your evidence that dinosaurs still lived 4350 years ago?
The evidence remains being what is observed; fossils showing that long legged repiles have become extinct and that a large array of close to earth reptiles thrive abundantly.
Nothing there about 4350 years ago.
This coupled with physical evidence attributed to the flood (another topic) and recorded history becomes inclusive in the thesis. applying the 4350 or so date
Nothing there about 4350 years ago, either.
Pretend you're preparing me for a debate where I'm to take the position that dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago. What information are you going to give me so that I can win the debate?
Percy writes:
How is the physiological and genetic evidence interpreted to reach the conclusion that snakes and lizards are the descendants of dinosaurs?
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian,...
Not only are they both reptilian, they're both reptiles. Dinosaurs are in the class Reptilia. Snakes and lizards are in the class Reptilia. Members of the Reptilia class tend to be reptilian.
...similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types. So far as the genes, that they would be different is extrapolated from the thesis as cause and effect. Any change in genetically physiology would necessarily be effected by genes.
You've just described your hypothesis, not your evidence. It is your hypothesis that the changes observed in the fossil record were brought about by dramatic genetic changes in a single generation. What is the evidence for your hypothesis?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 150 of 271 (560026)
05-12-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
The evidence remains being what is observed; fossils showing that long legged repiles have become extinct and that a large array of close to earth reptiles thrive abundantly.
This coupled with physical evidence attributed to the flood (another topic) and recorded history becomes inclusive in the thesis. applying the 4350 or so date .
This is not right. There are no 4000 year old fossils. So far as I can research it, the most recent fossils are 10,000 years old. Anything younger than that is a bone, not a fossil. And, as has been pointed out many, many times, there are no unmineralized dinosaur bones. They don't exist.
And, yes, I very aware that creationists often claim that it only takes a few years to make a real fossil. This is simply not true. If you can find a reputable study - and not unsupported claims from a creationist website - that says otherwise, I'd be delighted to hear it.
Once again:
Fossils are not bones.
Fossil remains of bones are rocks.
Rocks take time to form under natural conditions. (And yes, I know that you're going to claim that the Flood created exactly those magical, unrepeatable conditions, the same ones that apparently make radiometric dating completely unreliable from your point of view. This claim is also utterly unsupported by evidence.)
The only preserved remains of dinosaur bones ever found have been rocks, and not bones.
Ergo, no dinosaurs living 4000 years ago. None.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2010 10:42 PM ZenMonkey has replied

  
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