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Author Topic:   The race issue
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 5 of 134 (456930)
02-20-2008 6:45 PM


I believe I can sum it up like this..."creationism is wrong". I hope that helped.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 11 of 134 (457094)
02-21-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by IceNorfulk
02-21-2008 10:58 AM


If nobody can answer this issue of the races, then other inconsistencies form themselves. The table of nations seems to imply that Japheth was the father of all Mediterranean Europeans. Among his sons is Javan, which means Greece. Ham was the father of the Egyptians and Kushites (Sudanese) - all North Africans. Shem was the father of the people of the Near East.
I don't understand where you're coming from...do you believe the accounts in the bible to be real or not?
You seem to be contradicting yourself or you seem to be in an inner fight with scripture and archeology. You make all the right points for believe the bible to be false so whats your question on the races? Don't follow the bible, problem solved. Theres a great book call "The Evolution of Skin" check it out it should provide you with the answers.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by IceNorfulk, posted 02-21-2008 10:58 AM IceNorfulk has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 101 of 134 (559997)
05-12-2010 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:01 PM


Melanin variations
White people have the lowest levels of melanin, and black have the most.
This is so wrong it almost sounds like a joke. Was it a joke?
What gives human's their skin pigmentation is different types of melanin; it has nothing to do with more or less melanin.
See here
quote:
Because melanin is an aggregate of smaller component molecules, there are a number of different types of melanin with differing proportions and bonding patterns of these component molecules.
Eumelanin polymers have long been thought to comprise numerous cross-linked 5,6-dihydroxyindole (DHI) and 5,6-dihydroxyindole-2-carboxylic acid (DHICA) polymers; recent research into the electrical properties of eumelanin, however, has indicated that it may consist of more basic oligomers adhering to one another by some other mechanism. Eumelanin is found in hair, areola, and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin.
There are two different types of eumelanin. The two types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin, with black melanin being darker than brown. Black eumelanin is mostly in non-Europeans and aged Europeans, while brown eumelanin is in mostly young Europeans.
A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair.
Pheomelanin is also found in hair and skin and is both in lighter skinned humans and darker skinned humans. Pheomelanin imparts a pink to red hue and, thus, is found in particularly large quantities in red hair. Pheomelanin is particularly concentrated in the lips, areola, nipples, glans of the penis, and vagina. Pheomelanin also may become carcinogenic when exposed to the ultraviolet rays of the sun. Chemically, pheomelanin differs from eumelanin in that its oligomer structure incorporates benzothiazine units which are produced instead of DHI and DHICA when the amino acid L-cysteine is present.
Neuromelanin is the dark pigment present in pigment bearing neurons of four deep brain nuclei: the substantia nigra (in Latin, literally "black substance") - Pars Compacta part, the locus coeruleus ("blue spot"), the dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus nerve (cranial nerve X), and the median raphe nucleus of the pons. Both the substantia nigra and locus coeruleus can be easily identified grossly at the time of autopsy because of their dark pigmentation. In humans, these nuclei are not pigmented at the time of birth, but develop pigmentation during maturation to adulthood. Although the functional nature of neuromelanin is unknown in the brain, it may be a byproduct of the synthesis of monoamine neurotransmitters for which the pigmented neurons are the only source. The loss of pigmented neurons from specific nuclei is seen in a variety of neurodegenerative diseases. In Parkinson's disease there is massive loss of dopamine producing pigmented neurons in the substantia nigra. Neuromelanin has been detected in primates and in carnivores such as cats and dogs.
Now, explain how these different variations in melanin evolved, that's the real question and a good topic to discuss. But I did enjoy your whimsical tale of human evolution...it was quite amusing.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Wounded King, posted 05-12-2010 2:24 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 105 of 134 (560115)
05-13-2010 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Wounded King
05-12-2010 2:24 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it is both since your wiki article states of eumelanin, 'In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin.'
Right, but it's not an increase or decrease in one specific melanin; it's the absence or presence of different types of melanin that give the variations in skin pigmentation.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Wounded King, posted 05-12-2010 2:24 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 12:05 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 107 of 134 (560126)
05-13-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by slevesque
05-13-2010 12:05 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Then I guess a more specific explanation from dennis is need. What did he mean by "lowest levels" of melanin.
We all have same amount or "levels", just not the same type. I don't see why "lowest" or "more" is needed. It would be more accurate to say that we have different types of melanin that cause different variations in skin pigmentation.
Just to note, these different types of melanin also vary the color of hair and eyes, so its not just skin that melanin effects. Also, individual people can have a combination of the different types so they'll vary in not only skin but eye color, hair, etc. A black person can have the dark skin but also have light eyes, produced by having different combinations of melanin types. And vice versa; white people can have different combos producing unique variations in their skin, eyes, hair, etc.
To me, it is not accurate nor suffice to simply say, white people have the lowest levels and black people have the most. I was hoping that dennis clarified what he meant though.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 12:05 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 2:56 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 109 of 134 (560166)
05-13-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
05-13-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Melanin variations
If white people did have less melanin
But they don't...that's the point. We all have the same amount of melanin, just different types that produce different features.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 3:36 PM onifre has replied
 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 6:41 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 111 of 134 (560190)
05-13-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
05-13-2010 3:36 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Oh, sure, he's just plain old wrong, but what he meant seemed to be fairly clear.
Yeah, that's what I though too, but Wounded King and Slev threw me off with their replies. I thought I made a mistake. I only know of this subject from a book I read about 2 years ago, so WK's opinion esp. I would listen to.
- Oni

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 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 113 of 134 (560211)
05-13-2010 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by slevesque
05-13-2010 6:41 PM


Re: Melanin variations
That's the information I'm not sure about. Is that right ? Are you sure it's not a mixt of both different types and different concentrations ?
Shit now I'm confused myself.
Working from pure memory serves me no good, so this is currently what I could find: Melanogenesis
quote:
The difference in skin color between fair people and dark people is due not to the number (quantity) of melanocytes in their skin, but to the melanocytes' level of activity (quantity and relative amounts of eumelanin and pheomelanin). This process is under hormonal control, including the MSH and ACTH peptides that are produced from the precursor proopiomelanocortin.
Albinos lack an enzyme called tyrosinase. Tyrosinase is required for melanocytes to produce melanin from the amino acid tyrosine.
Although human beings generally possess a similar concentration of melanocytes in their skin, the melanocytes in some individuals and ethnic groups more frequently or less frequently express the melanin-producing genes, thereby conferring a greater or lesser concentration of skin melanin.
My understand is, it's the different amount or mixture of types of polymers (such as Eumelanin, Pheomelanin or Neuromelanin) that varies the skin pigmentation. So its not that you have more melanin or less melanin, its that you have more of a certain kind of polymer.
Maybe a better way to say it is, we all have the same amount of melanocytes just different polymers. Maybe?
If someone with more knowledge on this cares to explain it I'm more than willing to be shown where I am wrong.
- Oni

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 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 6:41 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Wounded King, posted 05-13-2010 7:18 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 115 of 134 (560223)
05-13-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Wounded King
05-13-2010 7:18 PM


Re: Melanin variations
I think you have an almost equally over simplified approach as Denis here
Damn, and here I was thinking I made it too complex.
Having the same number of melanocytes means nothing, they only produce the melanin so the same number of melanocytes doesn't mean the same amount of melanin.
Yeah I think I get that now having read it over a few times. So would it be more accurate to say we all have the same amount of melanocytes, we just have different active polymers that result in different skin pigmentation?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Wounded King, posted 05-13-2010 7:18 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 118 of 134 (560242)
05-13-2010 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by dennis780
05-13-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Melanin variations
If white people did have less melanin and that was a reduction in information then Adam and Eve would have been black because they woulda had so much more melanin."
Why are you choosing to stop at homo-sapiens? Adam and Eve would have been hominids. And why stop at hominids? we can keep going to the common ancestor of all mammals, or all vertibrates. Right?
Hominids weren't "black" homo-sapiens, were around much earlier and had different amounts of melanin. This screws your whole theory up. The Biblical creation is clearly disproven by these facts.
If creation is true, then God is the source of all information, so information could only be lost over time.
So you're saying *if* YOU'RE version of creation (the christian version I'm assuming) is true...then Adam and Eve were homo-sapiens and black. Ok
To quote lyx2no: "*If* worms had machine guns robins wouldn't eff with 'em."
If we allow for *if's* nothing is impossible. What does the evidence point to, that's the only thing that matters.
I hope everyone did not read too much into my generalization. I was more interested in making the point that useful information cannot be gained over time. Sorry.
No worries. Your ignorance on the subject helped my ignorance on the subject. Thanks.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:00 PM dennis780 has not replied

  
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