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Author Topic:   Artifical life
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 21 of 71 (561574)
05-21-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
05-21-2010 11:01 AM


Re: no barrier to mutation/s
Unless we see a mutation that produces a new species, that is new morphologically speaking, then the ToE claims still remain unproven.
Emphasis added.
Please explain why you think we need to see a mutation that creates a "new morphologically speaking" species to prove the ToE when the ToE doesn't predict such a thing to begin with.
With the fruit flies example, no mutation actually led to something other than a fruit fly.
Are you of the opinion that the ToE expects a fruit fly to mutate into something other than a fruit fly? Please find me one scientist who actually thinks that the ToE predicts a fruit fly mutation to produce anything other than a fruit fly.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 05-21-2010 11:01 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 05-22-2010 6:39 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 23 of 71 (561576)
05-21-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Flyer75
05-21-2010 12:35 PM


Are you denying in your post that thus far, in science, everything that has been created has had a designer (a scientist)???
I'm not going to speak for Granny Magda, but I will deny that everything that has been created in science has had a designer. The good people at NASA created more efficient antennae without designing them. You can read about it here.
Here are pictures of the antennae:
Isn't that fascinating? Those antennae were created by a completely random process, but are more efficient than anything man has designed.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Flyer75, posted 05-21-2010 12:35 PM Flyer75 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Flyer75, posted 05-21-2010 12:53 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 25 of 71 (561578)
05-21-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Flyer75
05-21-2010 12:45 PM


I'll add for the record that I don't think there are any evolutionists claiming this proves evolution in the sense of soup to man evolution.
I'm not aware of any. But then again, I'm not aware of any nonfundamentalist scientists who deny that that had already been well-established long before this achievement, so it would be exceeding strange for one of them to now claim that this is the proof we need.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Flyer75, posted 05-21-2010 12:45 PM Flyer75 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 41 of 71 (561681)
05-22-2010 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
05-22-2010 6:39 AM


Re: no barrier to mutation/s
With the ToE, it does claim that every single diverse design came to be through NS and M. Therefore, to prove this, you have to show a new design, just ONE new morphology.
If you are asking us to show you a new morphology poofing into existence in one generation, you are setting an impossible standard, and again requiring the ToE to produce something that it doesn't claim to.
New morphologies appear over time, as existing structures change over time into something different. If you'd like an example of that, I'll happily comply:
Well, you asked for "ONE," and I gave you one. Where are you going to move the goalposts to now, Mikey?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 05-22-2010 6:39 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 48 of 71 (561709)
05-22-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by agent_509
05-22-2010 5:06 PM


ToE is what it is, a theory, however it is in its own since, a belief, since while widely accepted, is very controversial, and does not have any substantial proof.
You seem to be trying to denigrate the ToE by calling it a theory. You obviously don't understand what a scientific theory is.
It is widely accepted, you got that much right. The only reason it is controversial is because of a vocal minority of people who reject it because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. There is no controversy in science about the validity of the ToE.
It in fact has more evidence supporting it than just about any other theory you'd care to mention. An in depth discussion of this evidence would be off topic for this thread, but I will refer you to this site which contains a comprehensive discussion of 29 different types of evidence that support it.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by agent_509, posted 05-22-2010 5:06 PM agent_509 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by agent_509, posted 05-22-2010 5:48 PM subbie has replied
 Message 67 by IchiBan, posted 05-25-2010 9:23 AM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 55 of 71 (561722)
05-22-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by agent_509
05-22-2010 5:48 PM


I'll read that site in time, but as for now I will simply place one of my own evidences against evolution. irreducible complexity.
IC is bullshit. Even Behe has acknowledged that the concept is flawed. Behe defines an IC system as one "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."
The problem is that evolution very seldom proceeds by the addition of fully functioning parts. Instead, what is often seen is changes in the function of different parts (exaptation), or sometimes, elimination of useless parts. Thus, the very concept is a strawman. It has very little to do with how evolution actually occurs.
The flagellar motor is a good example of irreducible complexity. If you were to remove one piece from it, it would stop working.
You're obviously well behind the curve on this one. This site compiles a number of different problems with the claim that the flagellar motor is IC. Among other points, it shows long list of bacteria that operate quite well in the absence of one or more of the parts that Behe guessed were necessary. It also shows numerous examples of bacteria that use the flagellum in other ways, providing evidence of exaptation.
The odds of such genetic mutations taking place to create all those proteins at once are so high, it's impossible.
Quite meaningless, since evolution doesn't proceed by big jumps, but small steps. Moreover, every creo discussion of odds assumes that there is a target result that evolution is trying to achieve. This assumption has no basis in reality.
{AbE
you are extremely wrong on the controversy of the science
Evolution is accepted by 95% of all practicing scientists. By what definition do you term that a controversy?
{End edit}
BTW, welcome to the site. If you are interested in learning, this is the place to do it. On the other hand, if you are only here to preach ideas about evolution that you heard from some creo or other, you are going to be very frustrated and disappointed by how many misconceptions, errors and lies most creo resources contain.
Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by agent_509, posted 05-22-2010 5:48 PM agent_509 has not replied

  
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