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Author Topic:   Ignorant, stupid or insane? (Or maybe wicked?) (ZenMonkey and Dr Adequate only)
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 1894 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 1 of 8 (548306)
02-26-2010 5:44 PM


Richard Dawkins writes:

It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).

Over in the How do scientists explain the cause of the Ice Age(s)? thread, among numerous digressions, Dr Adequate and I had a friendly disagreement about just what is going on in some creationists' minds, beginning with Message 15.

Dr Adequate writes:

I myself prefer the belief that creationists are halfwits, and will defend this view against the proposition that creationists are deliberate liars in despite of anyone who prefers that opinion.

ZenMonkey writes:

I'll accept that debate challenge. Before I came here I spent a year visiting the blog of a certain mustachioed Kiwi charlatan. Having witnessed the amazing level of deception of both self and others on display there, I assert that very few people could mouth the utter nonesense of creationism and not know on some level that they were full of shit.

Dr Adequate writes:

Very well. I maintain that the vast majority of creationists are sincere, and I shall argue for it. Start a thread.

And so here we are.

If we follow Dr Dawkins's schema above, it appears that Dr Adequate is arguing for ignorant and/or stupid, while I appear to be arguing for the unsavory choice of wicked. Insane is up for grabs.

We'll take for granted the most of what creationists accept is, to be charitable, not supported by the evidence. It could be that they simply haven't been exposed to evidence (ignorant), fail to grasp it if it is presented to them (stupid), or in my view, deliberately choose not to understand it (wicked/liars). I'd go so far as to say that on some level they really do know that what they're saying is simply not true, but will not accept it for reasons of their own.

Exhibit 1, "Dr" Kent Hovind.

Looking into "Dr" Hovind's glassy eyes, do we think that he really believes this stuff? Does he just not know any better? Or one way or another, does he know perfectly well (or at least suspect) that what he's saying is simply not true? While only Jesus knows what's really in his heart, what does the available evidence tell us?

Edited by ZenMonkey, : Clarity (always needed).

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add the "(ZenMonkey and Dr Adequate only)" to the topic title.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-26-2010 9:32 PM ZenMonkey has responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3768
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 8 (548321)
02-26-2010 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
02-26-2010 5:44 PM


A 1 on 1 debate with Dr Adequate?
Do you want this to be a 1 on 1 debate in the "Great Debate" forum?

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-26-2010 5:44 PM ZenMonkey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-26-2010 10:21 PM Adminnemooseus has responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 1894 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 3 of 8 (548328)
02-26-2010 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
02-26-2010 9:32 PM


Re: A 1 on 1 debate with Dr Adequate?
My own preference would be to throw it wide open, perhaps as a Free For All. I suspect that the Dr and I would agree far more than we'd differ. Also, he'd quite likely whup me in a mano-a-mano. But since the topic originated in the form of a debate, I'd agree to that, too. Dunno what Dr Adequate would most enjoy.

This should be fun, regardless.

Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-26-2010 9:32 PM Adminnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-26-2010 11:16 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3768
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 8 (548338)
02-26-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ZenMonkey
02-26-2010 10:21 PM


I'm going to start it out as a 1 on 1 debate
Later we can open it to all sometime and somewhere.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-26-2010 10:21 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3768
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 8 (548341)
02-26-2010 11:16 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Ignorant, stupid or insane? (Or maybe wicked?) thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 1894 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 6 of 8 (548623)
02-28-2010 5:50 PM


Calling the Dr - shall we play a game?
I'd rather not see this conversation die, as I still appreciate its potential for entertainment.

I'm not sure if I'm following Great Debate protocol exactly, but I'll start with a couple of observations, and then see if Dr Adequate is interested.

I contend that each of us has our own positive claims to support. On Dr Adequate's side, he'll have to offer evidence that outright stupidity is a dominant trait among creationists, and that they are indeed creationists just because they can't grasp even simple concepts when they are presented with them.

Basic ignorance is only the starting place, and as far as I'm concerned, it isn't that significant a factor. Creationists, like anyone else, may just not be very educated. They may have passed through the public school system or been homeschooled, but either way, it's common enough for high school graduates and even college students to be deprived of huge chunks of real learning. It's what they do when they are presented with the facts of the Theory of Evolution that matters.

Dr Adequate should show that creationists' dimwittedness is not selective. In other words, they have to be dumb in more areas than just science. If they can't understand math or English grammar either, then lack of intelligence may indeed be factor in their insistence on substituting belief in simple stories for facts.

I have a somewhat more difficult position to defend. I have to show that creationists are indeed capable of understanding Evolution, but that they choose not too. Further, I think that I'll have to show that they not only flee opportunities to learn, but that they commonly repeat falsehoods even when they've been shown many times over why they're wrong. That counts as lying as far as I'm concerned.

We might want to draw a distinction between active promoters of creationist nonsense and those who simply repeat what they're told. Take Ray Comfort. (Please.) It would be a slam dunk for me to make a substantial list of the lies that he spews out over the course of just one week of his blog. Of course, he's also a demonstrable dim bulb, but still. He's a liar, through and through.

Maybe we could take a recent example as a starting place. I'm thinking of herebedragons and his latest post, Are mutations truly random or are they guided?. He's what I think of as a typical creationist. He's come out with a fairly standard creationist position, been told that his assumptions and/or understanding are faulty, and most importantly, he's been told why he's wrong and where to go if he actually wants to learn something about natural selection's role in evolution. Now let's see what he does. So far his only post in the thread has been the OP. Will he actually go read something factual? Will he return with nothing to offer but restatements of his original position? Or will he just run away? Let's see.

Next?


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
foxj82
Junior Member (Idle past 2441 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 05-23-2010


Message 7 of 8 (561843)
05-23-2010 9:58 PM


Faith Verus Fact
I recently had a pair of creationalist's knocking on my door, presented me with leaflets and offered to discuss their view.
I have not got a religious back ground and mainly have the view myself that, everyone has the right to see the world through their own eyes and interpret their own conclusions.
What annoyed me i must admit is as follows:
The leaflet misquoted one of the laws of thermodynamics, in their shortened version, yes evolution is impossible, in the real published physics books, with the full version of the law, evolution is very much possible.
Any proof that exists that contra-indicates the creation theory, simply seems to be dismissed or ignored. Many great minds spent all their lives obtaining these advances in thought and knowledge, and if your going to make a decision on how the world works or if there is a supreme being, why would you not want all of the facts?
One of the questions asked by the two people standing at my door was "Well, how do you explain all the pain and suffering in the world?".
In my mind religion is not the shining example of all goodness that most religious people would like you to believe. Christianity had the crusades, i'd call that war, suffering and pain. Witch hunts in the middle ages and just look at the middle east right now.
Another question they asked "How do you explain all the wonderful variety of life on Earth, without the existence of God?". "Well i'm standing here reading your leaflet, why can't you read up on what your trying to get me to disbelieve? Darwin wrote the ,origin of species, and that pretty much cost him his respect and credibility." I replied.
We have so much evidence, validated fact and proof, on how old the Earth is, how old the universe is, how we evolved, isnt it time that stead fast believers in faith re-evaluated the big picture?
Please don't think I disapprove of people believing in a creator or divine entity, if it allows the individual to lead a more comfortable, secure life, and allows that person to be a better person for the good of all mankind, good luck to you. In that respect I don't know what happens when I eventually die, science cant give any explanations there... thought itself is energy, electrical impulse's in the brain, and the laws of physics state, energy cannot be destroyed, it simply changes location or state... where it goes, who knows?
But this is what it boils down to, personal choice. but when personal choice effects others ability to choose, that's just wrong. The edited laws of thermodynamics (i mentioned earlier), the banning of teaching evolutionary science in some states in the US, does exactly that, and it is unforgivable.
Whilst I don't rest the blame solely on religion, the fear of the unknown, has held back our civilization between 100 - 200 years. the first astronomers were tortured by the inquisition for suggesting other planets existed (before the invention of the telescope). Darwin was shunned for presenting his documented and researched work done in various locations across the world, including the Galapagos islands. People laughed at Columbus when he said the world was round. The list goes on.
Try to have an open mind, process all the information presented by people way smarter than most of us could ever even hope to be. Then just allow everyone to make up their minds on their own... and stop showing up on my door trying to make me believe, what you believe is real, using twisted science, half truths and lies to do so. Find something else to do with your time, get a hobby, go out, do some good in the world.
  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3768
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 8 (561845)
05-23-2010 10:07 PM


Thread Copied to Free For All Forum
Thread copied to the Ignorant, stupid or insane? (Or maybe wicked?) (ZenMonkey and Dr Adequate only) thread in the Free For All forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
  
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