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Author Topic:   10 Books To Save Humanity!!
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 100 (562496)
05-29-2010 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Coyote
05-28-2010 9:39 PM


The Aim Of This Thread
The aim of this thread (which I am obviously being very unclear about) is to assume that all the knowledge that is practically needed for survival has been catered for. The aim is to assume that what is necessry has been dealt with and instead concentrate on what should be preserved and passed on regardless of practical necessity. In essence I am asking what you think the crowning achievements of human culture, intellect and insight are.
Now I suspected EvC paticipants to have a very strong science bias. I expected General Realtivity, Quantum mechanics and the Theory of Evolution to be cited. I might even have hoped that someone would tell me what they think the definitive and authoritative texts are on these subjects.
What I didn't expect and am still slightly despairing of is the inability of anyone to get past the sci-fi practicalities of this. Hand washing, over-sized pictorial dictionaries and computer manuals are all very well but they hardly represent the pinnacles of mans insight and creativity do they?
Quote from Dead Poets Society:
quote:
"We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion. And medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for."
Forget the "fine" literature and take some practical books. You'll live longer.
Assume that all this is already in place.
Now what are the human achievemenst of insight, understanding and creativity that are worth prsereving and passing on? That is the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Coyote, posted 05-28-2010 9:39 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 46 of 100 (562497)
05-29-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Blue Jay
05-28-2010 10:59 PM


Re: My attempt at a list.
How would we ever rediscover the Theory of Evolution if we're all moving to a planet without a fossil record (without one that's tied to us, anyway), and presumably with total available biodiversity limited to whatever livestock we brought with us?
If we are going to cite the theory of evolution as one of man's main intellectual achievements (which I would BTW) then how would we pass that on? Is there a definitive book or other text based means of passing on this great insight under the scenario under consideration?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 47 of 100 (562499)
05-29-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by ZenMonkey
05-29-2010 1:50 AM


Much Closer
Thanks for your list. It was certainly a refreshing alternative to the other comments so far made. And more in line with what I had in mind.
I thought that the assumption was that the technical knowledge was all accounted for, and that the question was what 10 books could represent all of humanity's cultural achievments?
Cultural and intellectual was my aim. For example the colonisers will have engineers and pilots who can no doubt do complex calculations. But they won't have cosmologists who are experts in quantum field theory or the more abstract aspects of GR. So if we think that General Relativity (for example) is one of man's intellectual achievements worth preserving then we should include the text that best passes on that knowledge and insight.
This may be were I am confusing things in this thread. I am trying to incorporate all the aspects of human endevour (incl maths, philosophy, science, art etc. etc.) that are not in themselves vital in any practical sense.
Maybe tyhe best way to think of what I am getting at is to ignore those things that are necessry (i.e. assume already catered for) and instead concentrate on what should be included.
This will of course be highly subjective. But that is what I am asking. And your list is a good thought provoking one IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 1:50 AM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 3:44 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 49 of 100 (562628)
05-31-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ZenMonkey
05-29-2010 3:44 PM


Re: Much Closer
ZenM writes:
My take, which differs only slightly from Straggler's, I think, is that the starship is going to have as many textbooks and the like as anyone could want....
Let's go with that. My original intent was to try and establish what people considered to be the crowning intellectual achievements of the human race. Things that surpassed those insights necessary for simply surviving (or something like that). But I have obviously failed to convey this.
ZenM writes:
Homer The Illiad
Shakespeare Complete Plays and Sonnets
Newton Principia
Carroll Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Through the Looking-Glass
Cervantes Don Quixote
Chaucer The Canterbury Tales
Hamilton, Madison and Jay The Federalist Papers
Neitzsche Beyond Good and Evil
The Tao Te Ching
Kafka The Complete Stories
A worthy list and it def pisses all over my initial pop culture inspired list (where I basically looked at my own bookshelves and mentally threw 10 books into a rucksak).
If we have text books I am not sure how worthy of inclusion Principia is in itself. As inclusion on purely historic grounds it would have to compete with Darwins Origin Of Species and countless ancient greek works by Plato, Euclid and others. I would include something that dicusses the development of philosophy rather than the philosophical works of Nietzsche. Something like Russel's History of Western Philosophy. And I think your suggested inclusion of the Divine Comedy would be more worthy of inclusion than say Alice in Wonderland. Magna Carta instead of The Federalist Papers on the basis of greater historical worth.....just to explicitly show my own deeply cultural bias
More generally there are a number of problems with this thread:
1) It is probably an innately pretentious and silly question that I am asking. The sort of thing that seems like a wothwhile exercise when cycling home after a few beers but which is more likely to result in pretentious waffle in practise.
2) I have obviously failed to satisfactorily communicate what I am after in this thread.
3) Even ignoring the above failings the EvC audience are probably not ideally suited to this question anyway. People here are obviously far more inspired by the practical considerations of travelling to and colonising another planet than they are considering some pseudo-intellectual pretentious nonsense about mankinds intellectual and cultural legacy.
Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 3:44 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-31-2010 11:09 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2010 12:27 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 60 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 06-01-2010 4:51 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 51 of 100 (562634)
05-31-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
05-31-2010 3:38 PM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
Well, if they're allowed to produce a compendium of their knowledge en route, then that would give us a little more latitude.
Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that everything that needs to be documented has been documented.
Of course. But are you saying we haven't created anything worth saving?
Lots of things. But necessities come before luxuries, and ten books is a small limit.
Aside from that which is needed for survival and even comfort what else would we want to pass on to future generations of our species if we were limited to ten books? What aspects of non-vital human intellectual achievement are worthy of being saved at the expense of all else?
That is the question I am asking here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2010 3:38 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Theodoric, posted 05-31-2010 8:34 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2010 12:04 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 61 of 100 (562754)
06-01-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2010 12:27 AM


Re: Much Closer
But perhaps that too is not your question, or we would include the Origin of Species, the Principia, Einstein's papers, Archimedes' On The Method, and so forth, as being among the most brilliant of human achievements.
If we considered the seminal works in these areas to be the crowning achievement rather than the current state of knowledge in these areas then yes. But that is not what I meant. Is Origin of the Species mankinds pinnacle of insight in this area or is it mankinds current understanding of evolution by natural selection that is the intellectual achievement that we would want to pass on to future generations? (In which case Darwin's work was a vital stepping stone rather than the pinnacle) I would say the latter.
I which case the question would be what book best conveys that insight to future generations?
It's not clear what we're trying to do here.
So I have gathered and so I have conceded numerous times in this thread.
I dunno how else to put it and am frankly going to give up this thread as a bad call on my part.

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 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2010 12:27 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 62 of 100 (562771)
06-01-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-01-2010 4:51 AM


Re: Thanks for the laughs
But I just wanted to say I haven't stopped grinning all weekend at the idea of Straggler getting more and more frustrated at the refusal/inability of most EVC members to give a straight and simple answer to a straight and simple question.
Well I am delighted to have been of such entertainment value.
Unherdable.
Well you know what they say about atheists..........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 06-01-2010 4:51 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2010 8:01 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 63 of 100 (562773)
06-01-2010 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2010 12:04 AM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
One thing I would suggest that I don't think has been suggested yet is some book lavishly illustrated with photographs showing our achievements in the fine arts, the decorative arts, and architecture. They can't take the Taj Mahal with them, but they can go with photographs of it.
I did include The Art Book in my original list with that sort of thing in mind. But I hadn't thought of architecture. If you consider that worthy by all means suggest such a book in your list.
Also, how about musical scores? Is there any (non-practical) work of man that exceeds the Goldberg Variations? Let's send 'em off with the works of Bach.
Again - If you think that is worthy include it in your ten books.
P.S: Are we assuming that the colonists are going to be using English as a common language? Our answers would be rather different if they were all Chinese.
Not necessarily. ZenMonkey has included works that originate in a number of languages and I don't see why we should restrict ourselves in that way. Pick what you would choose.
Look - I am not actually expecting the call requiring me to dive aboard a spaceship with 10 books with which to preserve mankinds cultural and intellectual legacy anytime soon. This is meant to be a "fun" exercise not something to drive me to the point of insanity.
I asked the question because it seemed like a good idea at the time and because I was interested in what others would say. Instead everyone but ZenM seems obsessed with the rules and definitions of what counts and what doesn't if they even get past the flight instruction manuals and pamphlets reminding colonists to wash their hands and wipe their arses (not in that order hopefully).
Pick whatever you think is worth preserving of mankinds creative, intellectual and cultural achievements. If you want to include your mum's recipe for apple pie that is fine.
But FFS DA just give us a list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(***Straggler plunges fist into screen and then falls to the floor screaming in exasperation before a van pulls up and the men in white coats drag him off for electro-shock treatment***)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2010 12:04 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 12:46 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 71 by dronestar, posted 06-02-2010 1:52 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 64 of 100 (562774)
06-01-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Theodoric
05-31-2010 8:34 PM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
I haven't been putting anytime into this because the premise seems so overwhelming.
It was meant to be thought provoking.
The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Also, I think Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything" would have to be on my list.
Your two are much more along the lines of some of the pop culture classics that I had in my initial list. ZenM is going purely down the classics and high brow literary worth route. Mine attempted to straddle a bit of both.
All approaches are welcome. Just a list and some reasoning behind it are that is required. there are no right answers.
Well that's two. I will try to put some effort into expanding this list.
Cool.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 68 of 100 (562844)
06-02-2010 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2010 8:01 PM


Re: Thanks for the laughs
DrA writes:
What does eating babies have to do with the topic?
Actually I was referring to what Dawkins said about atheists:
quote:
Organizing atheists has been compared to herding cats, because they tend to think independently and will not conform to authority.
He should meet the EvC atheists who, as well as being utterly unherdable are also bloody minded pedants
Anyway - Organising atheists can be easy. You just need to tell them that there is a baby munching BBQ in the offering.
10 books?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 69 of 100 (562846)
06-02-2010 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ZenMonkey
06-02-2010 12:46 AM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
Having only one title to represent non-Western thought is shameful, though.
To be fair Western thought encompasses Western European languages other than English. The ancient Greeks and Latin texts I think would also qualify as forming the foundations of Western thinking.
So actually I would say the only genuinely non-Western text you have included is the Tao Te Ching.
On this broad subject I would recommend this book if you haven't already read it The Passion of The Western Mind

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 12:46 AM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 06-02-2010 9:44 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 72 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 4:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 74 of 100 (562964)
06-02-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ZenMonkey
06-02-2010 5:40 PM


Maths and Science
On the other hand, learning geometry from Euclid is an awesome experience, and just might be the best way to do it.
I guess the difference between maths and science in this context is that in the case of maths the original texts are no more or less valid than the latest (even if more refined) techniques. Whilst in science the more trial and error nature of the subject means that originating texts no matter how seminal they may be will always be lacking in terms of the latest evidence, findings and resulting conclusions. Darwins work with no notion of genetics being an obvious case in point.
So I'd still encourage you to pick up the Principia sometime, Dr A. In some ways I'm sure that you do know more calculus than Newton did. But you can still be mighty impressed by watching how he lays it out brand new.
I saw the original manuscript on display at Trinity college Cambridge. It is probably the closest I have come to understanding the reverence our theistic friends must feel for their bibles.
Geek factor 10........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 5:40 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 75 of 100 (562967)
06-02-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ZenMonkey
06-02-2010 4:59 PM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
What I was lamenting was that I knew so little about Eastern culture that I could really only come up with one title to represent it. Like most Americans, I suspect, I don't know nearly enough about The Mahabarata, The Analects of Confucius, or the I Ching, for example, to be able to testify to their greatness.
Arabic texts, those originating in the Indian sub-continent, Eastern European, ancient oriental and heavens knows where else are probably a bit of a mystery to most of us here.
But at least I managed to not limit myself only to English language texts.
Dude I was well impressed with your selections. They seemed to well thought out and honestly considered. If some here (and I include myself) had come up with that list it could have seemed a bit pretentious. An attempt to seem learned and intellectual. But in your case they seemed genuine. Which is why I haven't really disputed your selections beyond my initial comments.
What subject did you study ("major in" as I understand the US use of this term) at college?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 4:59 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 7:22 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 76 of 100 (562970)
06-02-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by dronestar
06-02-2010 1:52 PM


Re: MY book list
After ten weeks of intensive treatment, a team of Viennese therapists with sloping brows declare their experimental treatment a failure . . . Straggler is led behind a wall. A single shot is heard.
A zombified Straggler with hole in head through which you can clearly see emerges and lurches back into EvC participation......
Straggler, I think it might have helped if you attempted to personalize this list more. For example, "what personally inspires YOU, and what BOOK would that represent?"
What? And miss out on the exasperation and delights of attempting to communicate my ill thought out drunken little thread concept? Never! That would have been just too easy.
For me, in no particular order:
Firstly I did include a hugggge coffee table type art book called The Art Book. So nah nah nah.
Secondly I was this "-" close to including The Prince by Machiavelli.
Thirdly - Once DA had mentioned architecture I too thought of a book of blueprints of architectural masterpieces. But a quick look on Amazon didn't suggest any such thing exists. If you know of such a thing let us know.
Ultimately - If you had to narrow down to 10......?
Erotica: (I'm the ONLY person to consider erotica on this forum? There be geeks!!!) How about either, the Kamasutra, or one heavily-laminated copy of "Big 'Uns"?
I assumed that the first thing into the suitcases of those colonisers depraved enough to need such things would be their own private porn stash.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by dronestar, posted 06-02-2010 1:52 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 100 (562984)
06-02-2010 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ZenMonkey
06-02-2010 7:22 PM


Re: My Own (Initial) List
Your college education sounds fucking fantastic!! It also explains your approach to this thread and ultimately the quality of your selections. It sounds like your educational background was almost designed to answer this question.
If we do have to do any colonising naytime soon I vote for you to be chief librarian!!
It was, however, mostly wasted on my non-studious self. If only I knew then, etc.
Tell me about it. I studied theoretical physics with some philosophy of science thrown in. If I had been as interested then as I am now I would have made full use of that fantastic opportunity. As things were I was a crap student.
Instead I got drunk a lot and became very good at playing pool. Both of which I must admit however have had their benefits in later life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-02-2010 7:22 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
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