'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

I don't think the outcome is not that it is a "moot point." The outcome is that since there is no specific time frame in terms of numbers of years, how can you say 2000 years is a wrong number ?It is purposely left non-specific. God didn't want you or me or anyone to know exactly when Christ would physically return.If you are wise, because you DON'T know, you should want to stay close to Christ spiritually.You cannot grasp that as the point of Matthew 24 ?I'll give you this - I looked up the word "generation" Vine's Expository Word Study of New Testament Words (title?).He agrees with you that "generation" in Matt. 24:34 should mean Christ's contemporaries.The problem with this is that, even if Vine is right, Christ is risen and alive. I am pretty sure Vine would agree. Arguably then, those not born until 300 AD would be His contemporaries.Would they not be? If He rose from the dead then how can I say all of His generation is gone?If you don't believe that He rose and is alive, you might erroneously assume Christ and all that generation is gone. I'm a Christian. Don't ask me to think that way.At any the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:34,35 strongly imply that the listeners should hang on to His promises no matter how long they take to materialize.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Although this is not addressed to me, I want to respond. I, and others, have jumped around to scripture to SUPPORT our case. You seldom do. I have stated this quite a few times. Its that pesky CONTEXT thing.I used Revelation to show that Jesus said he would return with angels and reward mankind. I used this to refer back to Matthew, in which the same is stated.I used the other books outside of the gospels to show ALL who refered to the end times, used phrases that ALWAYS showed it was quite close.You bounce all around. You had an entire post on the word "generation" which didnt address the issue at all of Matthew 24 and his use of the phrase "this generation".There are a few meanings of the word. None of the versions you used had anything to do with the way Matthew used it.In fact, as I stated a few times, EVERY time "this generation" is used in the Bible, it refers to the time frame being talked about.See the difference how you and I use context?

The Jayuggernaut rolls on! I cannot tell if you are obtuse, do not undestand context or are lying. I really cant.First, you made so many errors in your last post concerning my previous post....that I spent quite a bit of time responding.I posted it and it went nowhere.So I decided to not repost it and concentrate on a few points.First, I never said the parables were out of context. I explained in detail what I was refering to and you still did not understand.Using the word "delay" and stating that it could mean any length of time is NOT using the context.Yes, the word "delay" can mean any amount of time, but using the surrouding scripture, we can tell how long the delay was suppose to be.Second, there was a delay, from when Jesus died to when he would return.Third, the delay was decades. The problem is that it was only suppose to be decades according to Matthew 24.Fourth, you're once again (which you do ever single time) destroy the context. You see the word "all" and you just throw it to mean every person then and now. You see the word "they" can you say it must refer to everyone including the disciples. You seem to forget that Jesus is talking to those in that time frame.Fifth, you believe since Jesus was talking to his disciples and you are a disciple that it must refer to you also. How ridiculous. By disciples, I'm refering to those being talked to IN FRONT of Jesus. That point you made alone shows you have no idea what context is. Everytime I said disciples, I was refering to those standing in front of him.So now lets stop playing games. Just answer the questions.3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"Who is Jesus talking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,Notice "at that time" which means that one time, NOT times......Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination hat causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.All those events are to occur during the time of the desolation.Who is to witness this desolation? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!"Those days' refers back to everything Jesus has stated. Yes or no?20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.Who is Jesus refering to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again.This great event according to Jesus, will only occur once. Yes or no?22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.Who did Jesus tell ahead of time? His disciples or those 2000 years in the future?26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years in the future?27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]Does IMMEDIATELY mean quickly or 2000+ years later? Who is to witness this event? His disciples or those 2000+ years later?30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.Does "at that time" mean on or about the same time as the sun darkening or 2000+ years in the future?32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door.Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples or those 2000+ years ni the future?34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."This generation", does it refer back to the story Jesus is telling?42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.Is Jesus still talking to his disciples? Yes or no?Simple questions Jay. Please, do not jump around like you usually do and grab scripture from anywhere else. Just answer the questions. They're simple questions. I do not need convuluted answers.

[/qs]Sheer baloney.
I have not done anything different in principle from what you have done.You in essence - "But this passage supports my view".
Me in essence - "Did you think about this passage? It supports what I am saying." What's pesky about it ? And I did the same (in principle of relating it to Christ's Second Advent) , going over details that you did not notice. And making corrections, ie. "tribes of the land"I didn't do anything that you did not do. I also drew support from other portions even within the Matthew 17, 24, 25 context. And that is DEAD WRONG. There are some senses of "generation" which are not chronological but moral / spiritual.And I demonstrated it. I don't see any difference. In all your boasting about paying attention to context you tried to splice apart verse 35 from 34 in a suspicious way.But I may come back to this matter of the word generation with laser like focus. And I will establish the case for Ramoss how it is best understood in Matthew 24:34.And I will draw on supporting scriptures which elsewhere use the word or evidence the nature of a non-chronological sense of "generation".May not do it today though. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

How long was it suppose to be then ?Now I am trying hard to follow you. But I point out that YOU are not taking seriously that in the parable the virgins all became drowsy and SLEPT.If you object to me interpreting that that strongly implies that they DIED, then I am interested in your alternative explanation.What do you think it means that the tem virgins all became drowsy and slept ? It is rather from when He ASCENDED and RETURNS.The Holy Spirit (the OIL for the lamps) was mainly imparted to the disciples after Jesus resurrected (John 20:22) and after He ASCENDED to Heaven (Acts 1:8; Luke 24:49)You mention "pesky context". How about "pesky consistancy with the rest of the New Testament" ?Or do you have an alternative interpretation to what it means for the virgins to have ... OIL ? This is only possible if one holds that "generation" is chronological and means everyone in the discussion including Jesus terminated their lives in death.Only in that condition could you possibly insist on decade/s.
I don't accept that chronological sense of the word generation in Matthew 24:34. And your statement that that is the ONLY sense of the word in the New Testament is demonstrably false. In the context of the parable, the all refers simply to ALL of the ten virgins. "And while the bridegroom delayed, they ALL became drowsy and slept." (v.5) Since First Thessalonians says some will be alive and left remaing it is obvious that some Christians will not have died, if when the Bridegroom comes back. That is if we interpret slept as meaning the death of the disciples.I await your alternative interpretation of the phrase "drowsy and slept".But I think the parable's point is that some disciples DIED more prepared for the Lord's second coming. They were wise. And some disciples DIED less prepared for the Lord's coming. They were FOOLISH.Now, WHY were some of them foolish ?? Probably because they neglected some aspect of being filled with the Spirit, the "oil" in thier personalities. They assumed perhaps that because Jesus was coming right around the corner, it was not necessary to live a really Spirit filled Christian life.Before you scoff in dismissal, consider the entire letter of Second Thessalonians where Paul has to give a balancing word to some of the Christians in the church in Thessolonika. They thought they could drop their day job and just wait for Jesus to snatch their bodies away.Paul had to bring them back from a foolish and presumptious attitude. This is a very strange phenomenon you have. That is the concept that Jesus' words are not to listeners of Jesus ever since Jesus walked on the earth.I tried to help you. "What I say to you, I say to ALL. Watch!". You simply do not take that passage seriously. It is not ridiculous. In fact the reason why Matthew included the conversation was for the benefit of all the followers of Jesus.If you do not want to be in the audience, that is your loss. That is your Gospel rejecting business. Because you do not want to hear Jesus don't tell me that He is not talking to me. " Heaven and earth shall pass away. But my words shall by no means pass away." I notice that heaven and earth are still around me, so I want to take heed to the words of Christ. Do I know what day my Lord Jesus will come? Yes or No?
If "No" is your answer, as it would be mine, then this sentence is to ME ... "Watch therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour." (Matt. 25:13)Now if YOUR unbelieving, skeptical soul doesn't care to hear, that's on YOU. Don't tell me He is not talking to me. They ASKED The question one behalf of the rest of us disciples. And that is why Matthew recorded it, so we could also have the benefit. He was talking to His disciples PERIOD. "And what I say to you I say to all. Watch!" (Mark 13:37).Don't whine about context. It is virtually the SAME discussion. The disciples including me, jaywill.And if I were you, I would quickly decide that you also better pay attention. The skeptics have your head twisted around. He was speaking to us disciples so that we would also not go running after Mohammed, Bahuallah, Charles Russell, Charles Manson, Rev. Sun Myung Moon, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and YOU TOO or whoever it was who stuffed your head with the failed prophecy error. All together now. What does He say ???? "And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch!"How come He didn't say "And what I say to you I say to NO ONE ELSE" ??I have to stop here for the night. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

A failed prophecy by Jesus doesn't seem like a fine point. He wasn't off by just a little ... he said less than a generation. That was a long time ago. We're still waiting. OK, so Jesus' estimate was a LITTLE OFF. What does this scheduling problem say about the inerrancy of the Bible? Why do IDer insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible, although it is sometimes blatantly inaccurate? Did God actually create the universe in only 6 minutes, but He didn't like to brag? Was Noah's flood just a rainy day? Yeah, you're right. It was sorta gloating. Sorry. Whether the prophecy has failed or not is a simply a question of timing. So how long until I can righteously gloat about his failure? 3000 AD? 666,666 AD? *sigh* As long as it takes, I suppose...

In Matthew 24:34 I think that "generation" is defined by a moral and spiritual condition rather than chronological dates.I tried the prophecy out assuming other meanings and it still is no slam dunk for the "failed prophecy" crowd.I will be saying more about this soon. But first, you say that "We're still waiting". If Jesus were to come today, where would you be ? He says this: "The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect ouyt of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into a furnace of fire. In that place there will be weeping and kn=gnashing of teeth.

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Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43) You are waiting and waiting. While you are waiting can you call God your own Father?. Have you been reconciled to the Father through the salvation of the Son?Or are you just curiously waiting in a naive and presumptious way? Are your sins washed away before God in the blood of Jesus? Where would you be if the kingdom of God were manifested from heaven today ? Will you be one of the righteous sons of the Father shining forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father ?The Apostle Peter said that the delay was for the reason that God wished all would advance to repentence: "The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)We are concerned for the "failed prophecy" crowd, with binoculars curiously set on the sky, impatiently waiting of the second coming of Christ, if they are not reconciled TO Christ through His salvation.I use the time to be washed in the blood of Christ from all my sins and be filled with the Spirit of Christ in ALL of my living. I use the delay for His eternal purpose to grow Himself within me. As of yet I have stated no position about the inerrancy of the Bible. I think the autographs were free from errors. The Scriptures were copied and we have only manuscripts many of which clearly reveal errors as typos of copyist while at the same time amazingly accurate given the number and times of copying.None of these typos seem to effect any major biblical truth.I don't think the delay proves any error in the word of God.
The ID question is really another discussion. We can meet on one of the discussions on Genesis under Bible Study and I'd give you my thoughts on that.But I would draw your attention now to Revelation chapter 10. You know this book contains a good amount of prophecy about the last days before the second coming of Christ. Look here where Christ symbolized as another strong Angel SWEARS the there will be DELAY NO LONGER:In this book of "signs" Jesus Christ as a strong Messenger, a strong Angel comes and lifts His right hand to the Father and swears the THERE WILL BE DELAY NO LONGER."The time of God's longsuffering will have come to an end. All who will advanced to repentance have either done so or they have not. For the sake of His own righteousness the long suffering God will terminate the delay.The parable of the ten virgins said " ... while the bridegroom DELAYED, they all became drowsy and slept" (Matt. 25:5)And the parable of the faithful servants says "Now after a LONG TIME the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them." (Matt. 25:19) But the day will come when Christ will hover close to the earth, concealed in clouds -"clothed with a cloud" (Rev. 10:1), His feet as pillars of fire signifying steadfastness (pillars) of divine holiness (fire) upon the land and the sea. And as an angry lion ready to tear the enemies of God to pieces without mercy, yet remaining faithful to the covenant of Noah, signified by the rainbow around His head, will bring the longsuffering DELAY of His Father to an end.In the mean time we need to be washed from all our sins which only takes a moment. But we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit to live in and and by the indwelling Lord Jesus to be saturated with His nature in our personalities.We need to use the time of the delay to be sanctified and conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God: You see, those who are wise, like the wise virgins, will use the DELAY to have our beings justified, forgiven, and conformed to the image of Christ through His transforming Holy Spirit. Then we will be able to enter into that coming minifested kingdom and enjoy the recovered earth under Christ's reign.We need the TIME of the delay to be filled with the Spirit of Jesus for transformation, sanctification, glorification that we may enter into the joy of the Lord in His second coming.So I pray "Lord Jesus. How can I wisely use the time of your delaying to be prepared to enter into the new world of the Father's kingdom? I want to use the time wisely." I think the wise thing for you to do is to go to the Lord Jesus in prayer. You should ask Him under the cleansing redemption of His blood, to supply you with the proper attitude you should have concerning His second coming.I think you should derive you attitude directly from the Holy Spirit. Let Christ implant the godly and proper attitude you should have about His kingdom.

Yes. Jesus is still talking to His disciples. Read John chapter 16 about the Holy Spirit.Now I have a question for you. In Revelation 10 where the strong Angel swears to God the Creator that "there shall be DELAY no longer, " does that indicate that there was a delay ?See Revelation 10:1-6. I will only quote verses 6 and 7: Is it not logical to intepret the delaying of the Bridegroom in the parable of the ten virgins to be the delay that this strong Messenger swears that there shall be no more of ?I think so.

I see. It's like making lemonade from life's lemons. Thanks to Jesus' underestimate of the End time's timing - by a factor of about 50X so far - believers have more time to work the system and reserve a seat in heaven. I think the wise thing to do is take the Bible metaphorically in its entirety. In my opinion, if it's taken literally on almost any level, it's as likely to retard peoples' search for spirituality and truth, as it is to promote it.Please jaywill, back off on the random fits of proselytizing and bible-thumping. I know it's Sunday, and you're probably obligated to do this by your religion; but please consider those who have to wade through screen after screen of fluff to find something (possibly) on-topic.

Your ignorance of the fact that "generation" in verse 34 is defined by moral and spiritual condition of the leaders of Israel rather then the chronology and life span, is why you regard Matt. 24:34 as a failed prophecy.And people who want proselytes usually want something like support, money, allegiance, work, etc.I don't know what it is you think you have that I could possibly want.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It seems to me that you've simply dug up an alternative interpretation of generation in order to weasel out of the implications of this topic's offending passage...

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...there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

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This doesn't even use the word generation. It explicitly describes some fraction of an actual human generation. OK. So which things are you after? I don't think your sermons are necessarily targeted at the person to whom you're replying. I don't care to guess why you do it, I'm just asking that you cut it out, please.

You bounce all around. You had an entire post on the word "generation" which didnt address the issue at all of Matthew 24 and his use of the phrase "this generation".
There are a few meanings of the word. None of the versions you used had anything to do with the way Matthew used it.In fact, as I stated a few times, EVERY time "this generation" is used in the Bible, it refers to the time frame being talked about. This is exactly what I mean when I say you do not use context. That you bounce around from scripture to scripture ignoring the issue.You have an entire post using the word "generation". Yet if I remember correctly, you used only "THIS generation" one time.That post was how nearly all your posts are. I stated that every time "this generation" is used, it refers to that time frame being discussed. You then posted probably ten scriptures with "generation", built an argument around each one....which misses the point entirely! CONTEXT!Its "THIS generation" we are debating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------And I demonstrated it.
First, I never said the parables were out of context. I explained in detail what I was refering to and you still did not understand.
Using the word "delay" and stating that it could mean any length of time is NOT using the context.Yes, the word "delay" can mean any amount of time, but using the surrouding scripture, we can tell how long the delay was suppose to be. Why do you keep asking me for an exact time, when Jesus himself said that the disciples would not know the exact day or hour???? How many times must I bring this up? Also, a time IS given! How many times must I point out that not only did Jesus say his disciples would witness ALL the signs, but that Jesus states "this generation" which refers back to the disciples. Go back one chapter, who is Jesus speaking to?As for the parable, it means there are those who are prepared and those who are not, to put it simply.Now before I go any further...........Lets clarify something.When Jesus says "you", you are saying that it refers to all disciples, then and in the future?His disciples asked when the end times were to occur.Jesus tells them god will be sending signs.What is the purpose of the signs?

Okay. Let me ask you this:When the Apostle Paul was writing his epistles was "this generation" (Matthew 24:34) that Jesus was speaking to still underway? Or was it the generation following "this generation" ?This is addressed to Heretic only.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Your ignorance of the fact that "generation" in verse 34 is defined by moral and spiritual condition of the leaders of Israel rather then the chronology and life span, is why you regard Matt. 24:34 as a failed prophecy.

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It is your claim that 'this generation' is define by moral and spiritual condition. You are trying to rationalize your belief system, but you are unable to use the context of matthew 24 to make that point. Using out of context phrases from all over the place that have nothing to do with the context of Matt 24:34 does not make for a coherent or logical argument.

Not in all instances did I say length of life was not the implication. Matthew early speaks of 14 generations in three sections in chapter one. Those would be chronological generations for the most part.I think the phrase "some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see ..." is the phrase Jesus used when He emphasically meant His audience at that moment.And this is the phrase He used in Matthew 16:28.My focus right now will be with Eric Heretic.