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Author Topic:   Mind body dualism
Europa
Member (Idle past 2635 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 1 of 12 (563830)
06-06-2010 11:29 PM


Inspired by Dr Adequate's post on unsolved questions on biology ...

1. How does thought originate?

2. How do you recall something from your memory?

Probably these two questions are similar. But I think they are different. May be their mechanism of origin may be similar.

If you believe in mind body dualism, then, they may have an easy answer. But is the mind different from brain? Or is it a 'metaphor' used to signify the collective out put of the brain?


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Message 2 of 12 (564109)
06-08-2010 9:29 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Mind body dualism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 3 of 12 (564114)
06-08-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Europa
06-06-2010 11:29 PM


1. How does thought originate?

We don't know. But the view that it is a product of brain function is well supported while the notion of material dualism has no evidential support at all.

2. How do you recall something from your memory?

Memory is not well understood in detail, however some of the systems involved have been understood. Essentially memories are encoded in the patterns of interactions between neurons in the brain. Particular regions are specialised for long term memory storage and short term memory storage. I'm not clear on the details of our understanding of recall itself, but will simply note that recall does produce identifiable traces in images of brain activity such as MRI.


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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2891 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
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Message 4 of 12 (564117)
06-08-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Jack
06-08-2010 9:58 AM


Memory of memories?
Memory is not well understood in detail, however some of the systems involved have been understood. Essentially memories are encoded in the patterns of interactions between neurons in the brain. Particular regions are specialised for long term memory storage and short term memory storage. I'm not clear on the details of our understanding of recall itself, but will simply note that recall does produce identifiable traces in images of brain activity such as MRI.

One thing that I have often wondered is, when you recall the memory of a particular event more than once, are you recalling the original "recording" of that event, or are you recalling your last recalling?

I.E. do you create a new "recording" of a particular event every time you recall it - and does that overwrite previous "recordings"?

If so, how does this affect the accuracy of the memory?

Is anyone aware of any research into this?


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Modulous
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Posts: 7789
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Message 5 of 12 (564121)
06-08-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-08-2010 10:42 AM


Re: Memory of memories?
One thing that I have often wondered is, when you recall the memory of a particular event more than once, are you recalling the original "recording" of that event, or are you recalling your last recalling?

I.E. do you create a new "recording" of a particular event every time you recall it - and does that overwrite previous "recordings"?

If so, how does this affect the accuracy of the memory?

Is anyone aware of any research into this?

Awesome question! Studies have confirmed that the more you recall some past event, the more distorted the memory can become. I don't think the present consensus is something as easy to imagine as making copies of copies, but I think it is more a case of recreating the memories and sometimes incorporating facts you have later learned into the memories. Like how some people have a memory of watching the first plane hit the WTC on television live (The first plane hit (I saw that on TV), then the second (I saw that) AND I watched it live...therefore...)

Another example, the case of the woman who became absolutely convinced that her rapist was the man in the dock. Completely sure of it. She clearly remembered his face, his voice and so on so strongly she was prepared to send the man to prison.

The man later, by pure 'luck', shared a cell with a convicted rapist who confessed to committing the very rape he was found guilty of. He managed to convince the powers that be to run a DNA test, which confirmed it. The woman, seeing her actual rapist - at first denied that it was him and thought it was all a malicious story on her so-called rapist's behalf. The faux rapist was pardoned, the real rapist was sentenced.

They faux rapist and the real victim went on to become good friends. How sweet? I'm having difficulty finding the specific case based on that information because now there are many similar stories and it's difficult to sort through them (like a woman who identified a neighbour as her rapist, and he was charged despite him having a cast-iron alibi - he was on national television during the time of the rape...it just so happened she saw him on TV (a member of the audience, not a celeb or something) during the rape and presto memory-error, but this isn't a case of repeated recall)

Anyway, I believe the process is known as memory reconsolidation.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 6 of 12 (564124)
06-08-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-08-2010 10:42 AM


Re: Memory of memories?
One thing that I have often wondered is, when you recall the memory of a particular event more than once, are you recalling the original "recording" of that event, or are you recalling your last recalling?

I.E. do you create a new "recording" of a particular event every time you recall it - and does that overwrite previous "recordings"?

If so, how does this affect the accuracy of the memory?

(Radiolab had an episode on this. Have I mentioned I love radiolab recently?)

Is anyone aware of any research into this?

Every time you access a memory you change it. In fact, as far as the best research can tell, memory is as much an act of recreation as it is of recall. You seem not to actually remember many details, but instead fill them in is a you think they should be.

So in the specific of your idea of a new recording, it seems not; but in the general impression of memories being altered as they are recalled, you're correct.

Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1187 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 7 of 12 (564137)
06-08-2010 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Europa
06-06-2010 11:29 PM


2. How do you recall something from your memory?

Well, there are two types of memory:

1) Experiential memory, or emotional memory, and this seems to be recorded in bits and pieces. You can recall how you felt, you can tie that back to a few pieces of what happened, and your brain sort of fills in the rest through extrapolation. Quite often, you'll be able to recall this reconstructed memory because the emotions aren't so strong the second or third time around and thus they don't get in the way. Which leads us to...

2) Factual memory. So, like you learned a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, 2 + 2 = 4. The more you rehearsed that fact, the stronger the connectins between the neurons "encoding" that memory became until it's effotless to recall it. Factual memories are usualy devoid of emotions, probably allowing us greater recall on it. Also, there are usually ways to verify the memory quite easily, making it easy to reinforce the fact in our minds consistently.


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Europa
Member (Idle past 2635 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 8 of 12 (564162)
06-08-2010 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
06-08-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Memory of memories?
So in the specific of your idea of a new recording, it seems not; but in the general impression of memories being altered as they are recalled, you're correct.

I thought I agree with you.
But think of the 'memorized stuff.'
The structure of a cell should remain the structure of a cell as and how I memorised. No bits and pieces are added or omitted.

I learned the cell long, long ago. Now if someone asks me to draw it, I will probably omit some of the organelles and stuff. But why does this happen? I learned it. And I have forgotten because I did not repeatedly recall what I learned?

Recalling memory can alter it, you say.
Not recalling memory also alters it. No?
If I revise the structure of the cell, I can do an excellent job. On this occasion, recollection will strengthen my memory.


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1187 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 9 of 12 (564165)
06-08-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Europa
06-08-2010 6:20 PM


Re: Memory of memories?
With apologies to Mr Jack, I sort of explained some of this in my post above.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 6:20 PM Europa has not yet responded

    
Europa
Member (Idle past 2635 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 06-05-2010


Message 10 of 12 (564168)
06-08-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
06-08-2010 1:19 PM


Well, there are two types of memory:

I was curious about how thought and memory originate. Not that anyone will have an answer to it. But that it is something I sometimes wonder.

Sometimes, for no apparent reason, we will start thinking of something.
Similarly, sometimes for no apparent reason we can recall a distant memory.

For both thought and memory, sometimes there is a trigger. Sometimes there's none. And it is those times when there is no apparent trigger that puzzles me.

With apologies to Mr Jack, I sort of explained some of this in my post above.

Yeah.
I submitted my response before I read your comment.

Edited by Europa, : No reason given.


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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 645 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 11 of 12 (564217)
06-09-2010 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Europa
06-08-2010 6:37 PM


The Brain is a Chaotic System
Europa writes:

For both thought and memory, sometimes there is a trigger. Sometimes there's none. And it is those times when there is no apparent trigger that puzzles me.

The key word is "apparent". Although there may not be an apparent reason or trigger for something you think or recall, that doesn't mean there isn't one. The brain and its processes are so complicated that you might liken it to such chaotic systems as the weather or the world economy. In those systems, a small unnoticed perturbation may trigger a chain reaction that ultimately results in far reaching consequences.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2891 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 12 of 12 (564230)
06-09-2010 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
06-08-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Memory of memories?
Every time you access a memory you change it. In fact, as far as the best research can tell, memory is as much an act of recreation as it is of recall. You seem not to actually remember many details, but instead fill them in is a you think they should be.

So in the specific of your idea of a new recording, it seems not; but in the general impression of memories being altered as they are recalled, you're correct.

Thanks, that's very interesting.


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 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 06-08-2010 11:47 AM Dr Jack has acknowledged this reply

  
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