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Author | Topic: Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hawkins Member (Idle past 1399 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined:
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quote: Can you experiement through this? That's just a human explanation by human speculation without experimental support to bring it into a scientific truth. Hate to burst your bubble here though, IT IS YOUR FAITH! So don't sound if it is a scientific truth that nothing exists after death. Or should you write some scientific reports to conclude that "void after death is proven"? Gee. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3761 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
someone writes:
All this aside. Slavery is irrelevant. God does not see his creations as slaves.Huntard writes: ? But his creations see each other as slaves. So, what does god do? Does he make it perfectly clear that we should not treat each other as property? Nope, in fact, he allows it and sets up rules for it. This fallacy is called, "the babbling from inaccurate knowledge" fallacy, courtesy Dr. Sing. Seriously, Huntard. I thought you were a rational guy. Unless you understand (or even attempt to) the big picture of how things work in the Bible, you are doomed to misinterpret it in abysmally wrong ways....like what you were just doing. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8546 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Huntard writes: But his creations see each other as slaves. So, what does god do? Does he make it perfectly clear that we should not treat each other as property? Nope, in fact, he allows it and sets up rules for it. Dr. Sing responds:
Unless you understand (or even attempt to) the big picture of how things work in the Bible, you are doomed to misinterpret it in abysmally wrong ways....like what you were just doing. Oh. Huntard is wrong and there is an admonition from god against slavery? Is the affecting passage in the OT or the NT? Either? Both? And Huntard is wrong about the biblical rules for slave owners on how to buy, sell, punish? Are Leviticus and Exodus no longer in the standard cannon? And 1 Timothy 6, Luke 12? Paul's admonitions to the bonded and their masters in Ephesians 6? All are now gone? Or are they ... Just exactly where and how did Huntard make this "the babbling from inaccurate knowledge" fallacy? Inquiring minds want to know. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3263 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
The God of the Bible is perfect in a completely different sense than Adam was before he sinned. But, Adam was made in God's image. Let's do a little premise, conclusion type argument, and you tell me where it goes wrong. 1) God is perfect.2) Adam is made in God's image. 3) Adam is perfect. 4) Therefore, Adam is perfect in the same way God is perfect. As an example. If you have a perfect square, you make another square in that square's image and it is also perfect. Then wouldn't they be perfect in the same way? If one's perfection is different form the other's, then one wasn't made in the image of the other, something was changed.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3761 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
Perdition writes: But, Adam was made in God's image. Let's do a little premise, conclusion type argument, and you tell me where it goes wrong. 1) God is perfect.2) Adam is made in God's image. 3) Adam is perfect. 4) Therefore, Adam is perfect in the same way God is perfect. As an example. If you have a perfect square, you make another square in that square's image and it is also perfect. Then wouldn't they be perfect in the same way? If one's perfection is different form the other's, then one wasn't made in the image of the other, something was changed. By your logic then, Adam is also...a clone of God. So we have God I and God II?
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3761 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
I'm going to be as succinct as possible on this one because it is not possible to resolve the Bible's stance on slavery on a internet discussion with limited time.
The Bible doesn't ever advocate slavery. The Bible does not demand slavery. The Bible gives rules and regulations about treating slaves. I said to Huntard to look at the big picture because, in light of the fall, the earth is currently being dominated by Satan. Satan is called the prince of this world. And this means he is playing with it left and right. Like a lot of other unfortunate happenings, slavery is also a result of the fall, compounded by satan's power to sway man's mind whichever direction he pleases. God gives guidelines for slave treatment in order to regulate and organize whats going on....I've wondered why He didn't just overpower satan and completely eradicate it from this world altogether (He could do this if He wanted)....and I battled with this question for years...and found a speculative answer from studying the big picture. In Rom 6, Paul uses slavery as a metaphor. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Unless there was slavery in the Bible like there really was in the world, we most probably would not understand the concept of being born again. Being born again is likened to being a slave to Christ. And someone who does not understand slavery is probably not going to understand being born again as well. The Bible is being honest by including slavery in its pages (not advocating it, just including it) because slavery has been present in human history. You can tell that the Bible is a real book, and not fairy tale because of things like this. All this said, I do not advocate slavery. The slavery that exists among humans is cruel and harmful. And I'm not for it at all. But as a believer, when Paul says I gotta be a slave to Christ.,..I understand what he means and I totally agree with him. God is never going to ill-treat anybody...unlike men, which makes human-human slavery a disgusting thing. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8546 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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The Bible doesn't ever advocate slavery. Neither does it condemn it.
The Bible does not demand slavery. Neither does it enjoin it.
The Bible gives rules and regulations about treating slaves. Which is tacit acceptance of the practice. And yet homosexuality is a strict and vocal abomination. Why the difference with the abomination of slavery? Slavery was part and parcel to old middle east culture. It was as ubiquitous in society as today's cell phones. No one gave it much thought. It was just the natural order of things back then. What this says is that the writers gave no thought to the institution as one would expect from an inspired divinity; at least one who had any objection to the practice. Yes, indeed, this shows the bible to be a real book written by real men without divine inspiration. The alternative being that the divine inspiration came from a blood mongering schitzoid psychopath who apparently couldn't care less about the sufferings of his creation. I prefer the former.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4801 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
"Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house"
This is different from common slavery, in that the rules of war apply to the victor. "and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband" Wrong. Once again, a section of the Bible is misread. God CLEARLY states that if any man takes a wife of the defeated tribe, he cannot touch her for one MONTH. This is for the mourning process. When he goes to her, this means that she is finished mourning, and the man may be with her. God in NO way indicates rape.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4801 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
"It was forced on the slaves. That's what I meant. Nobody was forced to take slaves, but you can't say that a slave was not forced into slavery.
Dr. Sing writes:
It was forced on the slaves. That's what I meant. Nobody was forced to take slaves, but you can't say that a slave was not forced into slavery." Slavery was neither forced nor advocated, it was only tolerated and allowed. Actually, you are wrong. When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3. You should read your Bible next time.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4801 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
"Or should you write some scientific reports to conclude that "void after death is proven"?"
Maybe us christians should ask you to show us some scientific reports on the "void before life"? Can you explain, what is a singularity again? I find it amusing that you cut down Christianity because people have faith. Faith is the foundation of religion. Science is the foundation of evolution (or lack thereof). This is the big difference between us. Faith is required by us, evidence is required by you. Although there is evidence for christianity, and a young earth, it is not required to be a CHRISTIAN. Faith, and forgiveness is.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2320 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
dennis780 writes:
Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it. When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3. Thank you very much Denis! You just destroyed Dr. Sing's point completely. How nice of you. So, here we even have god directly telling his subjects they must take slaves. Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that.
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4542 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
"Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house"
This is different from common slavery, in that the rules of war apply to the victor. "and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband"
Eric writes: I'm not wrong. You're making excuses for the abominations your god condones. You conveniently ignored the entire scripture. Here it is again. Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
Eric writes: Here we have god giving the losers to the victors. And seest among the captives a beautiful woman,
Eric writes: Usually armies do not attack with their women, so I'm inclined to believe its the Hebrews attacking another nation. So they invade and they see some beautiful women. and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Eric writes: If you want to have sex with her....take her. Well, thats rape. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her , and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her,
Eric writes: Do you really believe after their husbands/sons are murdered that the women are freely giving themselves to the invading forces? Notice what it states? If AFTER having sex (which yes, its forced) if the man does not want her.... thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."
Eric writes:
...then he can let her go. Lets put this in perseptive. I'll assume you are married. An invading force attacks. Whereever you are located, the battle is lost. A soldier decides to take your wife. Do you really believe she willingly wants to have sex with him? Do you think she has a choice? After a month, the soldier still finds her attractive. He decides to keep her. Do you find anything remotely wrong with any of this? Does this sound like something a god would come up with or something mankind would come up with?
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4801 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
"Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it."
God was neutral on the subject of slavery, because it was not BAD. In fact, God wanted Joshua to kill Gibeon, along with the other tribes. God commands Joshua a number of times to leave no one alive, to kill the animals, and destroy the crops. Lets put it into perspective for a moment. If you and I knew each other, and I lost everything in a fire. All my cattle, my house and crops...everything. Would you take me in at your house, and pay me to work for you? Because Biblically, this is slavery. Slaves were paid, allowd to have families, and leave with everything they came with. "Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that.
dennis780 writes:
Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it. When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3.Thank you very much Denis! You just destroyed Dr. Sing's point completely. How nice of you. So, here we even have god directly telling his subjects they must take slaves. Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that." God is not against persecution of any kind. The bible teaches blessed are those that are persecuted in my name: "11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."Matthew 5:11-12 Even if slavery were seen as evil or bad (and in was in the case of the israelites and the egyptions), God does not turn a blind eye, but loves you for loving and obeying him, no matter the conditions.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4801 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
[10] When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
[11] And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
[12] Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare [1] her nails;
[13] And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
[14] And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.Deuteronomy 21:10-14 I don't see rape anywhere her. However, if you read all of Dueteronomy 21, it outlines rules for wives, rights of first born, rules on capital punishment, etc. This chapter is dealing with people in a position of power. Victors in battle, parents, etc. God is clearly outlining that your power was not to be abused. Although after a battle, the victors were allowed to place lots on goods and on the people, they were required to follow strict guidelines. Women of the defeated may also consider going with the victors because most or all of their men would be dead. As well, these practices were of the old covenant. Jews were also allowed to have more than one wife in this time. This is considered wrong in the new convenant. I believe it's also important to look at the shaving of the head, and paring of the nails. This more than likely represented, removing of the old life (since the women taken captive in this instance were not jewish), and changing into the new one.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
I don't see rape anywhere her. [11] And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; [13] And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. It clearly says: if you see a woman you want, take her as your "wife", give her time to mourn, then fuck her. I don't see: wait till she agrees to fuck you, in there. I also don't see any command to wait for her consent to take her as the wife either. It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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