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Author Topic:   Question on how Evolution works to produce new characteristics
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 13 of 104 (563617)
06-06-2010 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Europa
06-06-2010 5:49 AM


Hello europa, welcome to EvC.
europa writes:
The often quoted example of Lamarkism is the elongation of a giraffe's neck. Now, the giraffe did not 'learn' how to have a long neck. But this is Lamarkism.
No it isn't. Lamarckism states that the giraffe got the long neck because the ancestors of the giraffe stretched their necks, leading them to get longer necks because of that, and then passing this on to their offspring. However, this is not the case. The giraffe got the longer neck from a random mutation, was then able to reach more leaves, and because of this could survive better and pass this trait on to its offspring.
This is exactly the case with the frogs. They don't aquire the speckles because they need to, they aquire them by chance (or not, then they wil go extinct).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Europa, posted 06-06-2010 5:49 AM Europa has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 36 of 104 (564074)
06-08-2010 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Europa
06-08-2010 5:32 AM


Europa writes:
We have some organisms that have not changed very much -- living fossils -- and we have other organisms that have shown remarkable change in a relatively short period of time. If we MUST apply the same theory to explain them both -- evolution -- I think there is something that I do not follow here.
Yes. The environmeent of the one species might not have changed much at all (think deep sea creatures for example), while for the other, a radical change in environmet cuased them to change radically as well (lizards being transported to a completely different island with different foodsources develloping a cecal valve).
And when i ask, you say the living fossils are the exceptions. I thought they were exceptions to natural selection for I could not think of anything else.
They are exceptions to what we "normally" see.
If they are exceptions because natural selection applies in an exceptional way, when we talk of living fossils, it does not make sense to me.
Well, it doesn't apply any differently. The pressure were simply much less, resulting in far less change than other populations.
How do you apply the same theory to explain the living fossil and the monkey?
The environment, and changes to it, is key.
-----
Also, a free tip for you. If you reply to a post it is better to use the "reply" button on the bottom right of the post you are replying to. This will make it easier to track your replies and will also send an e-mail notification to the person you replied to.
Edited by Huntard, : Added a free tip!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 5:32 AM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 6:49 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 42 of 104 (564086)
06-08-2010 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Europa
06-08-2010 6:49 AM


Europa writes:
It is hard to believe that tuataras and other reptiles lived in the same habitat and yet, the tuataras did not change but the other reptiles did.
Then there is of course also the possibilities that they went on to specialize and fill different niches. The tuataras are well enough adapted to survive in their own niche, yet other reptiles found another niche where they could prosper better, and so, adapted to that particular niche. Think about it as lions and zebras, both inhabit the same environment, but fill very different niches.
Okay.
But if natural selection is a creative force that is blind...
It's not really a creative force. Mutation screate the adaptations. Natural selections weeds out the bad ones and allows the beneficial ones to proper.
...has no purpose or direction...
The "purpose" of natural selection is to allow the most fit individuals to thrive, the direction is determined by the environment.
why do some organisms change and some do not?
Because some don't need to. They fulfill their particualr niche well enough to not need to change at all to thirve. Some find a differeent niche in the same environment, not yet filled by another organism, and adapt to make full use of that niche. Or sometimes the environment changes rdically, and this force the creature to adapt as well. Or go extinct of vourse, that's always a possibility.
I think there should be no exceptions because NS is BLIND.
I don't agree it's "BLIND",a t least, it can be argued about. Anyway, even if this were the case, then would that not be a perfect explanations on why some things change and some things don't? Afterall, if it's blind, it doesn't know what to act on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 6:49 AM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 7:01 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 53 of 104 (564222)
06-09-2010 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Europa
06-08-2010 7:01 PM


Europa writes:
Bottom line is ...
We have organism A (a living fossil)
We also have organism B (a regular animal. Say a monkey)
A living fossil is also a regular animal, there is nothing special about it. And as Dr. Adequate has explained, the term "living fossil" is quite ambiguous.
A has not changed for 100 million years.
B's ancestors' lives if traced to 100 million years will show fifteen or more species.
There is no organism alive today that has not changed in a 100 million years.
We are asked to explain this.
So we have to do something.
It has been explained to you.
The only rational explanation is to say what you all have been saying: That A's environment did not PROBABLY change that much and that there was no real evolutionary pressure for A to change.
Anything else will not make sense.
Sorry to say this, but the above explanation does not make sense to me.
So? That's an argument from incredulity: "This does not make sense to me, therefore it cannot be true!". That's a logical fallacy.
If it is not a creative force, how do you explain the existence of human beings form something that started as unicellular organisms?
Like I said, mutations are the creative force. Natural selection is a filter that keeps what that force creates and is beneficial, and discards what that force creates and is detrimental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Europa, posted 06-08-2010 7:01 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:08 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 59 of 104 (564479)
06-10-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:08 PM


Europa writes:
Is there an argument from credulity too? 'This is the only way it makes sense to me. Therefore this has to be the only explanation.' Will that be a logical fallacy as well?
Yes.Although this is also an argument from incredulity, what you're actually saying is: "Nothing else makes sense to me, so....".
Sense is a very bad way of determining truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:08 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:18 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 62 of 104 (564483)
06-10-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Cyanobacteria -- the ultimate "living fossil"?
Europa writes:
Logically, it is also difficult o believe that for one population the environment is more or less the same for millions of years. Now Huntard will say this is an argument from incredulity. lol.
Do you often laugh when true things are said? what is "logically difficult to believe" to you is irrelevant, what the evidence shows to be the case is. So yes, this is a logical fallacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:04 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:19 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 64 of 104 (564485)
06-10-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:18 PM


Europa writes:
I agree.
But if we do not rely on sense, we should see evidence.
Precisely. In fact, we should always rely on the evidence.
Do we have the evidence?
For?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:18 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:22 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 88 of 104 (564586)
06-11-2010 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Europa
06-11-2010 2:38 AM


Hello again Europa, I see the thread has been busy overnight.
You have misunderstood my point. My Zeus story is not true by any means. I called my creature 'coplimite' also to emphasize that this is nto a true story.
But I hoped it demonstrated that the fact we see organisms alive is no fact that their environment did not change.
He did understand it. His response was that if you are going to argue like that, than literally nothing is evidence for anything.
Giraffes? Marduk's brain-ray.
Mars? There because aliens are folling us with superior technology.
Stripppers? The flying spaghetti monster wants us to be entertained.
These are all the same reasoning (Special pleading) that you used. But as explanations they are completely useless. That's waht the Dr. was trying to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:38 AM Europa has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 89 of 104 (564587)
06-11-2010 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Europa
06-11-2010 2:42 AM


Europa writes:
I just noticed that my member rating is 1. lol
This is a new development. Did I get rated because I posted 33 times? lol
Don't pay attention to ratings, they're not a permanent feature here anyway, and will be changed so that only positive ratings can be given. I for one never look at a persons rating, just at their posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:42 AM Europa has not replied

  
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