|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: That boat don't float | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Jzyehoshua, and welcome to the fray.
You've made some assertions that have little to do with the topic of the thread, and newcomers generally don't understand the protocol here of sticking to the topic for each thread: if you want to discuss some other topic, then start a new thread. Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
Additionally, there is the mere act of fossilization, which requires covering something so fast bacteria can't destroy it. Sinking down gradually into swamps doesn't allow for this. If you want to start a new thread on this, then we can discuss it in more detail. Otherwise you will need to accept the fact that peat bogs have perfectly preserved the remains of many people from over 1000 years ago with no bacterial damage, that "tzi the Iceman" is a mumified corpse of a man buried in ice, complete with leather shoes, and that natural mummies have been found in the deserts of china and peru. In all three of these cases the environment did not allow bacterial decay, thus the bodies were preserved. Bog body - Wikipedia
quote: Ötzi - Wikipedia
quote: An Overview of Mummification in Ancient Egypt
quote: In a nutshell your claim is shown to be false from this evidence alone. Interestingly, this means that Josh McDowell and Don Stewart are not good sources for valid information on reality.
Message 329: At any rate, my point is that we assume many of the factors on which dating methodologies, and thus the age of the earth, are based on, to be the way they are because of Uniformitarianism. Why has Carbon 14 decayed at the same rate? Because that's what it does now. We assume the concept of Uniformitarianism to be true, aka 'the present is the key to the past', and assume that such huge catastrophes - which not only fly in the face of Uniformitarianism but we've now been forced to recognize did actually occur - did not affect carbon levels and the atmosphere. Because if they did, then the dating methodologies would be thrown off. We have often heard that such dating methodologies are unreliable past 10,000 or 100,000 years. And yet, still they are used to reach these exorbitant dates. In addition to what Coyote says in Message 21 of the Assessing the Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) Project thread, please feel free to see if you can be the first creationist to deal with the evidence of old age as detailed on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 - in particular see Message 1 and note that the issue is correlations between all the methods of dating. Both of those threads are better places to discuss this issue, as the age of the earth is not the topic of this thread. I'll let Coyote follow up on your response to Message 21 and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1. Note that any YECs that fail to answer the issues on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 yet claims that the earth is young are only fooling themselves: a young earth does not produce evidence of extreme age, and the existence of this evidence invalidates the claims of a young earth.
Message 330: They just fit the evidence to whatever works for their evolutionary theory worldviews, the exact same way they complain Creationists are doing. 40,000 years would not work for evolutionary theory, so it takes another team to get the result they want. Early life was too complex, so we need to take on another 40 million years to its start time. Curiously, the argument from ignorance and incredulity does not affect reality. You are welcome to your opinion, but having an opinion doesn't mean that it is true - you need to look at the evidence, all the evidence. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : subtitle we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: Isn't the thread topic, as seen from the title, 'Geology and the Flood'? About the closest I came to deviating from that subject was mention of flood legends (which is still somewhat related, since it bears on geology based on ancient witness), so I'm not sure in what way I am violating protocol.
quote: Yes, such mummification via peat bogs can occur. But how prevalent is it? Simply looking at this picture, it appears relatively easy to distinguish a peat bog produced fossil, as opposed to a different kind of fossil. To my knowledge, scientists don't claim most fossils to be the result of peat bogs. And the subject McDowell and Stewart focus most on, fossilized fish, probably did not die, in most cases, from mummification in peat bogs. Furthermore, as stated here, isn't it true that "natural mummification is rare"? After all, simply proving that natural mummification CAN happen would not support the natural fossilization of all fossils through slow depositional rates. You would then have to prove prevalence. It would also not explain fossilized footprints:
quote: quote: I did not claim that natural mummification cannot occur, neither to my knowledge did McDowell and Stewart. Rather, the implication was that the large mass of fossils are not explained in this fashion, and that typical explanations involve sinking down gradually into swamps - which seems to be distinguishable from mummification in peat bogs. For example, dinosaur mummies have been found as a result of such mummification, and it's resulted in obviously distinguishable results. As stated from this Creationist article,
quote: Also stated here,
quote: My key point is that even mummified dinosaurs show different levels of preservation than dinosaurs fossilized in other ways. Is there any evidence to suggest most or even many dinosaurs were preserved as the result of peat bogs or natural mummification? And if so, wouldn't they show signs of more advanced preservation per the mammoth or Leonardo? According to National Geographic concerning the Leonardo find, "It was an extremely fortuitous find, because the odds of mummification are slim, researchers noted." The implication then being, that dinosaur fossils occur via other methods... Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Isn't the thread topic, as seen from the title, 'Geology and the Flood'?
The forum title is Geology and the great flood. The thread title is That boat don't float, It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Oh - alright, I will try proposing a new topic then on evidence for a global flood so comments from here can be relocated.
EDIT: The new topic proposal can now be seen here. Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given. Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pandion Member (Idle past 3028 days) Posts: 166 From: Houston Joined: |
The extra biblical connotations of a reed ark aside (it supports a mythological explanation for the ark), I noticed something on the TV news that illustrates a point I first made in msg 7. An unpowered vessel will be turned broadside to the waves.
In watching the news about about 16 year old Abby Sunderland and her attempt to sail around the world, I noticed in all pictures of her boat after it had been demasted, it was broadside to the waves. Without any means to maintain headway, a boat, ship, or ark would turn broad side to the waves. This sort of event resulted in the loss of the three destroyers in 1944 (USS Hull, USS Spence, USS Monaghan). Miss Sunderland is very lucky.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Biblically, the ark was made of Gopher Wood, not reeds. As for whether or not it would turn broadside, I have seen articles such as this one examining construction possibilities, based on ships of ancient design (the inference being that ships might inherit the design of the ancient world), and how such features might account for stability.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi pandion,
An unpowered vessel will be turned broadside to the waves. In watching the news about about 16 year old Abby Sunderland and her attempt to sail around the world, I noticed in all pictures of her boat after it had been demasted, it was broadside to the waves. This is due to the motion of water in the waves (which is not the motion of the waves). The water flows from the peaks to the troughs from both sides of the waves.
This sort of event resulted in the loss of the three destroyers in 1944 (USS Hull, USS Spence, USS Monaghan). Miss Sunderland is very lucky. She was in a sailboat with a keel that kept the boat from rolling over, unlike the destroyers. And yes, this would be a problem for a big boxy ark, no matter how "shipshape" the ends were. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Jzyehoshua, I'll follow up on your new thread when promoted.
Just a quick point though:
Yes, such mummification via peat bogs can occur. But how prevalent is it? ... Furthermore, as stated here, isn't it true that "natural mummification is rare"? After all, simply proving that natural mummification CAN happen would not support the natural fossilization of all fossils through slow depositional rates. You would then have to prove prevalence. Except you were the one claiming that it could not happen. All I needed to prove was that it occurred. What you are forgetting is that your initial claim was that:
Message 323: Additionally, there is the mere act of fossilization, which requires covering something so fast bacteria can't destroy it. Sinking down gradually into swamps doesn't allow for this. And that this claim is invalidated by the bog mummies. Now you can admit that you were wrong and we can move on. Fossils are rare. Rare does not mean never occurs. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : rare we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Jzyehoshua writes: Biblically, the ark was made of Gopher Wood, not reeds. Greentwiga says the ark was made of reeds, not gopher wood. See Message 196 where Greentwiga says, "A careful reading of the Bible shows that it is a reed boat described." You say the ark was made of gopher wood, not reeds. Before continuing the discussion could you and Greentwiga get together and reach some kind of consensus on the construction material for the ark? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
|
quote: I suppose there's the question of whether the peat bogs were the same as gradually sinking into a swamp, but to move this conversation forward I'll just admit to being wrong. To the last point, I still question whether most fossils occur from peat bogs, however.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: Ohhh, that's where that came from. I was wondering where the reed talk came from. To make a long story short, I have NO idea where Greentwiga is coming from. The word reed isn't even mentioned in the KJV until 1 Kings, and in Genesis 6:14 it mentions clearly the construction material is Gopher Wood. Maybe Greentwiga is thinking of Moses' basket, or another legend which does say it was a reed ark? I have no idea though, hoping someone else can elaborate.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 789 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
I did some quick research and think he was referring to a legend from a Babylonian clay tablet which did involve a reed craft (clearly different material than the Biblical ark).
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The oldest tradition of the people of Acoma and Laguna indicates that they lived on some island; that their homes were destroyed by tidal waves, earthquakes, and red-hot stones from the sky. They fled and landed on a low, swampy coast. From here they migrated to the Northwest, and wherever they made a long stay they built a 'White City Jz, would you mind pointing out the "similarities" between this and the Noah fable? I'm not seeing any beyond "water."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
btw Your new thread is at
Potential Evidence for a Global Flood and I see it is doing well ... Your link is not correct (it is to your message here) Enjoy we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
now I see my former post - thought it was missing.
Edited by RAZD, : deleted
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024