Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,583 Year: 2,840/9,624 Month: 685/1,588 Week: 91/229 Day: 2/61 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Open letter to conservatives
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 122 (565830)
06-21-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
06-21-2010 10:45 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
So which would you class yourself as?
Libertarian -- socially liberal, fiscally conservative.
Which would you class GW Bush as? Palin? McCain?
Neo-Cons.
What about the tea party movement - Is that neo-con?
I think most of them are probably conservative, but many neo-cons have piggybacked off of them.
Which significant figures in the Republican party would you say are not neo-cons?
Colin Powell and Ron Paul stick out.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2010 10:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2010 11:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 122 (565833)
06-21-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
06-21-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I am guessing that the 'open letter' in question wasn't really directed at either of these two people.
I'm guessing by the tone and invective, it would apply to anyone who refers to themselves as a Republican in one regard or another.
The problem is that the open letter generalizes and makes sweeping allegations.
I think it would be more wise and conducive to productive conversation to narrow it down to specific people within the party instead of blaming the entire GOP. That way you can be an objective observer versus being a biased mouthpiece for the left.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2010 11:09 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 06-21-2010 11:36 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2010 11:46 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 122 (565838)
06-21-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
06-21-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Generalization and sweeping allegations? The author provided very specific examples and links to reputable news sources as evidence of these specific examples.
Broad in the sense that he indicts the entire Republican party for what only some do or have done. Could a conservative publication point to Bill Clinton's philandering and conclude that the entire DNC agrees with it or acts as irresponsibly?
did you read the article and the provided links or are you just taking the middle man approach for the sake of political correctness?
I abhor political correctness, so, no. We see publications like this all the time. It's a smear campaign, the same you could expect from Rush Limbaugh and Co. I'm simply judging the effectiveness of the column. I think most people, and soon as they read a few lines, are already tuning out. If you really want to be heard, I think there is a smarter way.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 06-21-2010 11:36 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 06-21-2010 12:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 122 (565848)
06-21-2010 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
06-21-2010 12:19 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
quote:
Your party -- the GOP -- and the conservative end of the American political spectrum have become irresponsible and irrational. Worse, it's tolerating, promoting and celebrating prejudice and hatred. Let me provide some examples -- by no means an exhaustive list -- of where the Right as gotten itself stuck in a swamp of hypocrisy, hyperbole, historical inaccuracy and hatred.
The point is, as Taq illustrated earlier, one could just as easily find instances of left-wing indiscretions. What should we therefore conclude by them? That the whole DNC is premised upon a lie?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 06-21-2010 12:19 PM Taz has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 122 (565851)
06-21-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by onifre
06-21-2010 12:49 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
But would you agree that, how is it any of your business what anyone in any state does? Because, as you say, "I don't like to mind anyone's business but my own."
I think he's saying that what would effect him are policies in his own state (Virginia). Because he's subject to a policy enacted by his state, it therefore is his business because it effects him. But if he's not a California resident, the affairs of Californians don't effect, nor does he care.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by onifre, posted 06-21-2010 12:49 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by onifre, posted 06-21-2010 4:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 122 (565959)
06-22-2010 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by onifre
06-21-2010 4:23 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
He mentions that he doesn't care if a gay person wishes to marry in California (or anywhere else, other than Virginia), or if you'd like to abort a pregnancy in Cali or else where.
My question is, why care if they wanted to get married or abort a pregnancy in Virginia?
I don't know. Perhaps he's one of those people who think allowing gay marriage will cause some sort of upheavel in society.
It doesn't affect him in any way, whether it be someone in California, Alaska or Virginia. These type of social policies don't affect anyone but the individual it concerns.
That's how I see it too.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by onifre, posted 06-21-2010 4:23 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by onifre, posted 06-22-2010 1:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 122 (566023)
06-22-2010 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
06-22-2010 1:11 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
quote:
. . . less government intrusion . . .
Intrusion into what, specifically?
The sovereignty of your life and the economic market.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 06-22-2010 1:11 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 06-22-2010 2:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 122 (566039)
06-22-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taq
06-22-2010 2:23 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Are you for completely unregulated markets and against law enforcement?
If you had to broadly define the role of government in one, simple sentence, I think it would be "to protect it's citizens."
That goes for, obviously, law enforcement. It also goes for protecting citizens from things like fraud.
Could you give examples of where the government has gone too far?
The Patriot Act, Income tax, the New Deal, the Death Tax, the Soda tax, etc.
Edit to add: Social Security
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 06-22-2010 2:23 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 06-22-2010 4:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 122 (566140)
06-23-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taq
06-22-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I agree, but I think we disagree on how to protect citizens or what they need protection from. For example, Social Security was seen as a way to protect our elderly from poverty and death when they were no longer able to work. Medicare the same.
Here are my issues with Social Security:
When it was first implemented, it was promised to be an optional fund. In other words, you could choose not to pay in to it if you had private or self-sufficient means to save money. Because of the nature of how it works, funding was lacking. It then became a mandatory tax. (Sound familiar with the new health bill? Just wait, that will be mandatory too)
It operates on a faulty premise of IOU's. The money is supposed to go in to a separate fund drawn from the Treasury, exclusively for that use only. But as you can imagine, with the gross mismanagement of government, waste, fraud, and abuse has now indebted us past 13 trillion dollars, it takes money wherever they can get it.
The assumption is that every successive generation will be larger than the one before it, so that there will always be people in the workforce in which to tax. That's not at all the case. Since the Baby-Boomers, American's are having less and less children each year on average. The workforce is getting smaller, and the amount of Baby-Boomers retiring is increasing. It is going bankrupt and it is not improving the lives of retirees or the average American.
Its catastrophic failure is why you or I will most likely never see a dime of what we're supposedly entitled to. It's going bankrupt, which is the inevitable result of all socialist systems of this magnitude.
If you want to trust the government to efficiently care for you from cradle to grave, be my guest. Wise people invest their money in IRA's, Thrift Saving Plans, 401k's, etc.
One trend I have noticed is that those who lean to the right tend to trust corporations more than government and the opposite for those who lean to the left. Progressives see government as a way of doing something positive that we can not do individually or through a for-profit system. This also seems to be anathema to conservative thought.
When it comes to fiscal policies, I lean to the right. Rest assured, however, that I don't trust corporations. I trust a competitive market that drives down costs, raises innovation, which ensures I get the best product for less.
Corporatism, which typify neo-conservative thought, is a protection of private business at the expense of the citizen. For instance, the corporate bail-outs, which both neo-conservatives and progressives wanted, is a prime example of corporatism.
The market is just like nature in that survival of the fittest applies to economics too. If a corporation cannot survive on its own ingenuity, then they will (and should be allowed to) die.
Government bail-outs should have been included on my original list.
If you want to get rid of taxation that would require a rewrite of the Constitution since it gives congress the power to tax.
I don't want to get rid of taxation, I want to get rid of the current tax system, and substitute it with an efficient tax. Government is necessary, which means taxation is necessary. However, the amount of wasteful and unnecessary programs that exist, along with the ineptitude of the IRS simply highlights why we have a 13 trillion dollar debt.
Feel free to peruse this list at your leisure, and ask yourself how many on the list is necessary.
However, I do agree that the Patriot Act goes way too far. There was nothing wrong with the laws before it which concerned probable cause and rules for wire tapping.
It's just more and more encroachment in to your personal life. Benjamin Franklin was right; those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 06-22-2010 4:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 06-23-2010 3:50 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 122 (566148)
06-23-2010 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by onifre
06-23-2010 9:17 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Oh look, another internet tough guy. This looks like the punchline to the joke, "What did one nerd say to the other nerd?"
You should be comedian Speaking which, why am I not seeing you on the Last Comic Standing?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by onifre, posted 06-23-2010 9:17 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by onifre, posted 06-23-2010 10:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 122 (566174)
06-23-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by onifre
06-23-2010 10:09 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Festivals is what my goals are, NYC Underground Comedy festival, Montreal Comedy festival, Boston, Melborne, AUS, The Vegas festival
If you get to Boston, I'll take a 45 minute trip down there to watch you perform. Then we can get trashed and hit on a bunch of drunk bitches.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by onifre, posted 06-23-2010 10:09 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by onifre, posted 06-23-2010 12:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 122 (566355)
06-24-2010 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taq
06-23-2010 3:50 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Are you saying that you are against any social program like SS or do you think SS was poorly implemented?
No, some social programs are necessary, but social security is not one of them. Government programs such as these foster dependence upon an institution which views you as a number. You cannot choose not to pay them. At least with a private corporation, they don't have to get your business if they fuck up. It is in their best interest to keep you happy.
Then why do we pay more for health care per capita than people who live in countries with nationalized health care?
Because the United States does not ration care. Other nations employing a socialized form of healthcare, by necessity, must ration care because for something like one's health, the demand will always be greater than the supply.
I agree with the sentiment, but in this most recent case I don't think there was a choice. If the banking system failed we would have seen the next Great Depression.
AIG has nothing to do with banking, though the banking system itself had a lot to do with the current state of affairs. We did not need to bailout corporations at the expense of the already overburdened US taxpayer. The companies either survive or they don't. Not having AIG around won't make or break the United States, and it certainly won't send the economy in to an unrecoverable tailspin. What will, certainly, unequivocally, and without question, is the continued debt.
Now Obama, within a year of taking office, has contributed more to that debt than even George Bush. We just cannot keep going down this road with a broken system.
Maybe it is just me, but it seems to me that both sides of the aisle see no problem with encroaching into other people's lives as long as it isn't them. The majority of conservatives are pro-life. They want to get between you and your doctor, a very very private matter. Conservatives want to tell you what you can grow in your backyard, who you can marry, and how you die. It baffles me why someone would want to be aligned with conservatives in congress when they have such a long list of personal liberties that they either actively deny the populace or are trying to deny. "Promoting family values" means nothing more than denying people rights that make conservatives uncomfortable.
You are absolutely right, which is why I'm a libertarian. I don't agree with how conservatives assert their will on the lives of free people, living in what is supposed to be a free society. The level of their imposition is disturbing, to say the least. I find it sad that conservatives complain that progressives want the government to control the lives of everyone, but then turn around and try to get legislature passed that controls everyone's personal lives.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 06-23-2010 3:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jallen04, posted 06-24-2010 11:59 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 06-24-2010 1:09 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 84 by Granny Magda, posted 06-24-2010 3:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-25-2010 6:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 122 (566559)
06-25-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Granny Magda
06-24-2010 3:43 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Granny, those quotes you are attributing to me are not mine, save the first quote about rationing care. The rest is someone else (Artemis?)
I don't think people can quite appreciate the monolithic task for the US, the 3rd most populous nation on earth, with the largest amount of debt in human history, to go towards a universal health care system.
The majority of taxes already go towards human and health services as it is, dwarfing even defense.
Chart: Spending by Department
The United States government pays more taxes in to medicine than any other nation on earth, without having gone to a national healthcare system. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security are blights on the economy, and continually prove disasterous.
If the majority of Americans don't like healh care in America now, what on earth makes them think they will like it any better?
There is no question that the current system is broken in America, and that something needs to be done. Instead of socializing medicine and instead of bankrupting companies through employer-paid insurance, would a Medical Savings Account be the most equitable and efficient means of health care for everyone?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Granny Magda, posted 06-24-2010 3:43 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 06-25-2010 10:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 94 by dronestar, posted 06-25-2010 10:53 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 104 by Granny Magda, posted 06-25-2010 1:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 122 (566566)
06-25-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taq
06-25-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Pretty pathetic, wouldn't you agree? See where "free markets" for health care has gotten us?
The free markets have brought innovation and the most technologically advanced medicine in the world. What hasn't produced anything is the amount of government dollars in to a system it cannot afford. The only way a government-run medical program can reduce cost is to reduce care. When government tries to buy health care for everyone, the logical way to cover everyone is to limit what services it pays for. Take the egalitarian ethos to the extreme, and you’ll have government to prevent people from buying supplemental care with their own money, to prevent a two-tier system.
This is why the Mayo Clinic, one of the best hospitals in the world (and non-profit), scoffs at Obamacare. It is also why Canadians love having Americans in their hospitals, because they're actually going to get money from the insurance companies.
How much more would it cost to house and care for retired senior citizens if the entire program was privatized? A lot more, wouldn't it?
No, less. Competition forces companies to produce the highest quality for less. If they don't, they won't survive.
Medicare and Medicaid are the only two programs that have kept prices down. If it weren't for these two programs health care prices would be even higher and be even more of a blight on our economy.
Medicare and Medicaid are nearly bankrupt. This simply highlights why and how a nationalized healthcare won't work. It can't, it's simple economics. I can provide documentation for every nation that uses that system and how much problems come with it. France, England, Canada, etc, all the citizens like the healthcare, but it is a system in peril. They like the idea of it. And who wouldn't?! The problem is that it is so over-idealized, it is not feasible in reality without taking drastic measures.
And what would we do with senior citizens who have no income? Throw them out on the streets?
Like all people, it's your responsibility to be responsible. If you don't get insurance for your car and you get in to an accident, should it be everyone else's responsiblity to hold your hand and wipe your ass?
It's simple. Free health care really isn't free, is it? No, it isn't, because you pay taxes. The money that goes towards FICA and SSI can go towards a health savings account and a 401k. That's what responsible people do.
I mean, if you don't pay your mortgage, should you get to live in the house because you need housing? No. If you don't work for food, should you eat on the basis that you need food to survive? No. That's not how it works in the cold and unforgiving wild, so why would the opposite be true now?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 06-25-2010 10:26 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 06-25-2010 11:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-25-2010 7:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 122 (566567)
06-25-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by dronestar
06-25-2010 10:53 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
quote:
"would the Tea Party movement be ok with a defense budget reduction of $200 billion to pay for a $100 billion health care bill?"
I have yet to hear a republican/neo-con/fiscal-conservative answer this question. Seeing the US spends (wastes/graffs) on its military about as much as the rest of the world COMBINED, would you favor Taq's proposal?
Well, first of all, I cannot comment on what the Tea Party would do. I am not affiliated with them. Your figures that the US spends more than all nations combined is a gross exaggeration. Yes, they spend more per capita than any other nation, but not combined.
I also agree that military expeditures need to be seriously reigned in. One proposal I made on a recent paper was the closure of virtually all overseas bases (not embassies, but military installations). The amount of US bases abroad is absurd. Not only is it cost ineffective, but it sends the world the wrong message.
But to answer Taq's question, the majority of US taxes ARE spent on health care now. So I hardly see why throwing more money in to a pit of uselessness would be advantageous at all.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dronestar, posted 06-25-2010 10:53 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 06-25-2010 11:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 99 by dronestar, posted 06-25-2010 12:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024