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Author Topic:   The evolution of the Great Commission over time.
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4396 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 3 of 49 (572917)
08-08-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
08-08-2010 12:04 PM


Regarding Bells, Whistles, Smoke and Mirrors ..
Hope you are all well ...
So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?
As you note, the plain testimony disclosed in the booklet of Mark does not provide a clear basis for proselytizing heathens, much less instruction in doing so.
However, the seeds of many later doctrines utilized for such a purpose appear to have been planted and produced by the redactor who was responsible for creating the Matisyahu's booklet and its more fictitiously slanted narrative. That booklet, as you've suggested, shows a good number of symptoms - which when diagnosed, point towards being a severe case of 'redactitis' ... that is, of being a redacted version of the accounts given in Mark's booklet.
Matisyahu adds on a new beginning to the account given in Mark; then, while following the Mark account from about the sixth chapter onwards, begins introducing small edits and little changes here and there - with the result being, such loose editing revealing the ideological agenda of the redactor. Now, you ask, was this devolution driven by marketing pressure ?? You see, the thing is, the redactor did not likely edit Mark's good news without a reason.
The redactor appears quite offended by a relentless criticism of the ToRaH laws (and the pharisaical tendency to misapply, and indeed subvert, justice among them), and the overall hostile attitude taken towards the Yuhdeans (more specifically the Levite priests/pharisees) in general found in Mark's disclosure. Within that account, Joshua does not set foot in Yuhdean territory until the very end, only to be promptly murdered for having done so.
As you've shown, the original ending contained within the older manuscript evidence related to Mark lacks the shiny bells and fancy whistles (a factor that is highly suggestive of a definitively later insertion) that often accompany the smoke and mirrors of a very apologetic pharisaical phunhouse ...
Another of the small editorial revisions typical of the Matisyahu account is the use of the word ‘immediately' (meaning ‘instantly') which is tacked onto the Mark account whenever a miracle story was to be found. Certain miracle stories where the addition of this word ‘instant' might increase the propensity to yield an improper ideological framework were then simply deleted from the edited version being produced by the author of Matisyahu.
This seems to go a certain length towards explaining why one finds a hole in the Mark account, which then picks up at a point following that missing miracle, which could not have happened ‘instantly' as far as the editor was concerned, and therefore was simply tossed to the wayside.
It is important to understand that gospels are not explicit historical documents but rather they are agenda driven documents produced by ideological evangelists who are attempting to interpret events and push a certain point of view. It is only by disposing of the agenda of the evangelist, which requires us to recognize it for what it is, that we have any hope of finding the historicity of Joshua as the Anointed One which lies buried somewhere down below.
The reader here may recall an interesting parable which compares ‘the Kingdom of God' to a ‘buried pearl' which someone had buried in a hole out in the middle of a field somewhere. This was a ‘pearl of great price' which, according to this prediction, would wind up buried out in a field; a seemingly strange way to treat such a valuable pearl, matching the equally strange local that one may find such a valuable item in.
This parable appears to me as a commentary of sorts upon religion, and the way in which the truth is made subservient to the requirements of dogmatic ideology (perhaps through selective marketing and nullification). The ‘pearl' in this case could then be the Joshua who actually existed within history and the field in which this pearl of great price is found hidden within is what today is referred to as ‘sacred scripture'.
The edited version of the Good News of Mark which was then called ‘Matisyahu' is one interesting example of just how such a burial of a pearl takes place over time, with both Matisyahu and Mark then being subject to further editing to produce ‘Luke'; the result being that the pearl winds up buried even deeper in that hole in the ground as part of this ideologically driven process.
Great topic jar.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 08-08-2010 12:04 PM jar has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4396 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 24 of 49 (573472)
08-11-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
08-08-2010 6:20 PM


A Fine Example
Hope things are well with you all ..
iano writes:
jar writes:
If you are instructed to do something don't you think it would be a good idea to try to do your best?
If the instruction was to do something and I, like everyone else, found that I couldn't do it - but could only do partial version of it - then I might pause from my trying and query the purpose of the instruction. Given the lack of suggestion that my 'trying' was the name of the game, I mean.
So no, I don't suppose so.
It seems in iano's story, he - while speaking for everybody else, is somehow prevented from obtaining salvation through any genuine effort. This response to jar above appears to serve as a fine example of how a story changes over time by using selective marketing and systematic nullification techniques.
quote:
Luke 19:7
And when the people saw it, they all complained, He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.
8 ~ But Zacchaeus stopped and said to the Master, Look, Master, half of my possessions I now give to the poor,
And if I have cheated anyone of anything, I am paying back four times as much!
9 ~ Then Joshua said to him, Today salvation has come to this household, because he too is a son of Abraham!
There is the sense that Zach's choice not to claim righteousness or defend himself against the accusations of the dogmatics who hurled insults in his general direction are highlighted in his resolution to ignore the critics and address Joshua directly as he reveals to his new master that he has donated - if only, half of his possesions to the poor. While Zach didn't give up everything, it seems his attempt to do the right thing was met with considerable success.
In iano's theology, one must focus on their inability to foster positive change in their relationships with others, and indeed the world at large, while nullfying the various scriptural accounts which go to great lengths attempting to demonstrate that a person(s) with the proper motivating impulse may do just that.
As a result of Zach's meeting with Joshua, and making an honest attempt to adhere to the basic principles of reconciliation which Joshua has set forth within his interpretation of the ToRaH, he was a changed individual - who Joshua then suggests 'salvation' has come to his 'household'.
The lynchpin within this passage appears to be rather that the actual attempt at following directions, as juxtaposed with adherence to a mysteriously roman(tic) ritual atonement killing, is that which yields a result in Zach's favor, then justifying Joshua's commendation.
Kudos to you iano ..
ABE:
As an aside and more in the vein of your's and jar's current discussion, there seems to be certain changes and distinctions - as opposed to the concept of expansionism, in how each booklet deals with the Ruach HaKodesh or the Holy Spirit.
Mark ~ No reception of such among disciples whether pre or post ascension or related discussion by the Anointed One ..
(with the exception of the 'Spirit descending like a dove' on Joshua at his baptism of repentance)
Matis ~ No reception of such among disciples whether pre or post ascension or related discussion by the Anointed One ..
(with the exception of the 'Spirit of God descending on' Joshua 'like a dove' at his baptism of repentance)
Luke ~ Joshua tells disciples to stay in the city until he sends what his 'Father promised', then promptly ascends ..
(No further discussion on behalf of Joshua, nor further revelation concerning any reception of the Ruach HaKodesh)
Acts ~ Joshua tells disciples they'll 'receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon' them, then promptly ascends ..
(Disciples receive the 'Holy Spirit' and the gift of tongues outside of Joshua's corporeal presence, without the aid of his breath)
John ~ Joshua breathes on disciples and says 'Receive the Holy Spirit', before he (presumably) ascends ..
(No mention of tongues or being accused of drunkeness at 9 in the mornin' as a side effect)
Does the difference between the time lines and various other specifics and omissions seem like it may indicate a possibility that numerous communities viewed the narratives each within their own distinct context?
How do you reconcile your views of expansion - rather than the notion of distinctly separate story lines or jar's suggested concept of evolution, when regarding the reception of the Ruach HaKodesh ?
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : Added question ..

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 6:20 PM iano has not replied

  
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