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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 61 of 295 (569947)
07-24-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ICANT
07-23-2010 11:13 PM


Re: Still Inconsistent
ICANT,
Can you please show me one verse which had "yom" plus a number that equals more than a 24 hour day?
Can you give me an example where evening and morning are used together that do not show a 24 hour day?
Can you show me an example where morning and night are used together that does not show a 24 hour day?
If the original Hebrew does not mean literal 24 hour days, why has it been only "recently" that it means long "days"?
Do you agree or disagree if I was describing a 24 hour day, by stating it consists of a morning and an evening, would be accurate?
Thanks.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2010 11:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2010 8:36 AM hERICtic has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 62 of 295 (570049)
07-25-2010 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by hERICtic
07-24-2010 7:15 PM


Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi hERICtic,
hERICtic writes:
Are jar and I the same person to you?
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Unless you include the light portion in which the Heaven and the Earth was created in Genesis 1:1 you have an evening which ended with the following light period some 12 hours later.
If you include the light period that came before the evening of Genesis 1:2 and the dark period that ended with the morning light period of day two which God declared the first day. Then you have a day that consisted of a light period and a dark period just like the light period and the dark period of a day today.
This was God's definition of Day not mine.
God declares a light portion as day.
God declares the end of a light period followed by a dark period which ends with the beginning of the next day as the first day.
He then repeats this discription through day six.
On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by hERICtic, posted 07-24-2010 7:15 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by hERICtic, posted 07-25-2010 10:08 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:09 AM ICANT has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 63 of 295 (570057)
07-25-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
07-25-2010 8:36 AM


Re: Still Inconsistent
hERICtic writes:
Are jar and I the same person to you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm on meds for a sinus infection, but I'm sure I didnt write the above!
ICANT writes:
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Unless you include the light portion in which the Heaven and the Earth was created in Genesis 1:1 you have an evening which ended with the following light period some 12 hours later.
I'm sorry, I'm just not following you. Every day has a morning and evening. Every day has a light period and a dark one. Its a perfect description of a typical day. I asked all those questions which you didnt respond to, but every time an evening and morning are used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Every time "yom" is used with a number, it also refers to a 24 hour day. To suggest the author is not refering to a 24 hour day is twisting and/or ignoring what Genesis states.
ICANT writes:
If you include the light period that came before the evening of Genesis 1:2 and the dark period that ended with the morning light period of day two which God declared the first day. Then you have a day that consisted of a light period and a dark period just like the light period and the dark period of a day today.
This was God's definition of Day not mine.
God declares a light portion as day.
God declares the end of a light period followed by a dark period which ends with the beginning of the next day as the first day.
He then repeats this discription through day six.
I'm sorry, I really am having a hard time following you. Ramoss stated it was a 24 hour day, you seemed to disagree. Yet I cannot seem to "read" where you are disagreeing at all.
What exactly is your stance? Is it a 6-24 hour day creation or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2010 8:36 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:18 AM hERICtic has not replied
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 08-23-2010 6:26 PM hERICtic has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 295 (570063)
07-25-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
07-25-2010 8:36 AM


Evidence Needed
quote:
On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans.
This is the accuracy and inerrancy thread. Please show evidence to support your statements.
Show evidence that the 7th day hasn't ended for God.
Show evidence that there has always been light where God "is."
Edited by purpledawn, : Changed subtitle
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2010 8:36 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 08-23-2010 6:42 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 65 of 295 (570067)
07-25-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by hERICtic
07-25-2010 10:08 AM


quote:
hERICtic writes:
Are jar and I the same person to you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm on meds for a sinus infection, but I'm sure I didnt write the above!
I think that's the work of our cyberpunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by hERICtic, posted 07-25-2010 10:08 AM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 07-25-2010 11:21 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 67 by anglagard, posted 07-25-2010 10:40 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 295 (570068)
07-25-2010 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by purpledawn
07-25-2010 11:18 AM


No, just ICANT. He has attribution issues.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:18 AM purpledawn has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 67 of 295 (570150)
07-25-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by purpledawn
07-25-2010 11:18 AM


purpledawn writes:
I think that's the work of our cyberpunk.
Please. I just turned 53, and if referring to music, prefer the term cyberprogressive.
For the record, ICANT misattributed me, then I miattributed I(something or other) to ICANT and now ICANT is doubling down.
What a mess, think it's time for another break.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:18 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 68 of 295 (576245)
08-23-2010 12:50 PM


Chronology
Where in Genesis chapter two is there any chronological order presented, other than, what is demanded by the context of the chapter's narration?
The chapter begins by closing the discussion of chapter one and opening a new topic. The new topic is GENERATIONS of....
Which has nothing to do with chronological order as any requirement.
In chapter two there exists no terms implying chronology.
The word "AND" doesn't mean "AND THEN".
As some have said, the Bible isn't aimed at teaching science.
Instead the aim is teaching eternal truths.
However, there is nothing in the text to warrant any of the assumptions thus far displayed in this thread.
I list some of the assumptions that I noted.
a). That the narrator of Genesis two is not the same as the narrator of Genesis one.
b). That the chonology of chapter one extends throughout chapter two.
c). That the narrator is not God.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 1:57 PM Joseppi has replied
 Message 70 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 2:13 PM Joseppi has replied
 Message 117 by kbertsche, posted 08-26-2010 2:48 PM Joseppi has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 295 (576259)
08-23-2010 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 12:50 PM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
Where in Genesis chapter two is there any chronological order presented, other than, what is demanded by the context of the chapter's narration?
You have it backwards. If you want to claim an order other than what the narration suggests, you need a better reason than forcing it to coincide with chapter one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:18 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 295 (576265)
08-23-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 12:50 PM


Re: Chronology
I list some of the assumptions that I noted.
a). That the narrator of Genesis two is not the same as the narrator of Genesis one.
b). That the chonology of chapter one extends throughout chapter two.
c). That the narrator is not God.
Those are not assumptions, the first and third are conclusions based on the evidence. The second is simply silly since there is no connection between the two separate myths.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:27 PM jar has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 71 of 295 (576267)
08-23-2010 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
08-23-2010 1:57 PM


Re: Chronology
Ringo, You've got me backwards. I asked a question you didn't answer.
I claim no order whatsoever.
Chapter one's chronology is day by day until seven.
Chapter two has no chronology except what is forced by context.
My point being that the ASSUMPTION of a chronology in chapter two is merely assumed.
You said, "other than what the narration suggests". By this means you have presented the ASSUMPTION I was referring to.
You can show no cause for your suggestion of chronology other than bias beforehand.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 1:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 2:27 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 72 of 295 (576268)
08-23-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
08-23-2010 2:13 PM


Re: Chronology
Jar,
Saying you didn't assume is what is silly.
For example, you apparently have assumed that the narrator is not God, correct?
But, the first verse of Genesis says...In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Therefore, only God can be the narrator.
For the same reason, your unpresented and unpresentable evidence can't refute the simple understanding that the narrator is God. Since, only God could have been rationally thought to haev been a witness of any of these events in both chapters.
What is clear to me however, is that your bias is your only actual evidence rather than anything rationally rationally determined from the actual text.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 2:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 3:17 PM Joseppi has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 295 (576269)
08-23-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 2:18 PM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
You said, "other than what the narration suggests". By this means you have presented the ASSUMPTION I was referring to.
Exactly. That is the correct default assumption, that the chronology presented in the text is the intended chronology. If you want to reject that assumption, you need a compelling reason.
Joseppi writes:
You can show no cause for your suggestion of chronology other than bias beforehand.
On the contrary, the ones showing bias are the ones who want to shoehorn the chronology in with that of chapter one. I am perfectly willing to accept the idea that chapter two was not intended to be chronological if you can provide a compelling reason.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:18 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:33 PM ringo has replied
 Message 75 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:36 PM ringo has not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 74 of 295 (576270)
08-23-2010 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
08-23-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Chronology
Ringo,
If you have no answer then admit it. why act like your assumptions are the rule?
YOU CAN NOT ESTABLISH ANY CHRONOLOGY THROUGHOUT CHAPTER TWO.
So, feel free to say...O yes I can but I don't have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 2:47 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 75 of 295 (576272)
08-23-2010 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
08-23-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Chronology
Ringo,
I didn't shoehorn anything. Assumption is apparently your natural characteristic.
My compelling reason is the absence of anything denoting chronology in chapter two. (However, there is one example of contextual based chronology)
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 2:27 PM ringo has not replied

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