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Author Topic:   Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 284 (577327)
08-28-2010 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Dr Adequate
08-28-2010 4:09 AM


just those resulting from deliberate neglect --- as of course we do. As has been made clear to you
now yoou have qualified soemthing that was not being talked about. you just changed your argument, for i was not limiting it to just those who show neglect. the parents did not show neglect. your qualification just shows how much you will slant the table to get your way.
won't work. as nix said it is either all or nothing. so stop changing the argument to suit your purposes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2010 4:09 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 284 (577328)
08-28-2010 4:22 AM


let me end my part withthis:
And no-one said that it was, and it would be stupid and dishonest for you to pretend that they did.
i am not giving all my side of it because it would be too easy to twist what i say. i am merely defending the parents ight to use faith instead of medicine. i have also stated that this is a christian matter for there are things involved which you do not understand nor believe in thus you cannot do justice.
this was not murder, neglect, irresponsibility, it may have been a poor decision-- i do not know as i do not know the people involved. BUT because people have the right to practice their faith, they cannot be criminalized for doing so when the results are less than ideal or children are involved. that is just wrong to do so in light of the fact that children die at the hands of competant medical professionals everyday, whether they are quacks or not.
it is best to leave this issue in the hands of those who understand it and know what is going on. ultimately though, since God has given everyone the right of free choice, parents will still make their own decisions and you cannot complain, for you would not want your arguments used against you when you did something inline with your beliefs or lack of them and lose your family while you were in prisoned.
it is easy to cry foul and make others pay the price but it is a different matter when you have to pay the cost instead.

Replies to this message:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 284 (577329)
08-28-2010 4:25 AM


i am done with this thread as i have said about all i can say and i have started to repeat myself. keep in mind, these parents were wracked with emotions, and desire to see God miracuously heal their child. they did nothing wrong.
people will always make decisions others will not agree with but that doesn't mean we criminalize everybody. itmeans that some people have to mind their own business and raise their families like God wants them to for they are not responsible for the decisions of others, they are responsible for their own.
sometimes you just have to take your eyes off other people and see how bad a job you are doing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2010 4:41 AM archaeologist has not replied
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Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 124 of 284 (577330)
08-28-2010 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 3:47 AM


that was not the question i was discussing
No, you clearly were off topic. That is why I kept asking the question that was on topic.
where you fail with this line of reasoning is that you are equating faith healing with rape
I am not equating them except in the area of denial of rights. If you kill your child through your silly healing ideas, you have denied their rights. If you rape them because of whatever mental issues you have, you have denied their rights.
That is the sense in which they are equated. None other. So please, stop dodging the question, and answer: are all denials of a child's rights okay, or are there limits?
if you want to end your hypocritical argument then you must include in your group of three 'crimes' all children deaths' at the hand of medical science/care.
I will include any death of a child at the hands of a doctor to be neglect, if they indeed die of neglect. And guess what? That happens too: we prosecute anybody who is guilty of neglect.
no matter what you say you are not going tobe right in this issue and appealing to secularism will not help you.
Ahh, yes, because of course The One True Truth™ is on your side! Well, seeing as your position is obviously unassailable you won't mind me asking you to get lost and letting us "secularists" have a debate about what we in the real secular world will do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 3:47 AM archaeologist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Rrhain, posted 08-29-2010 3:15 AM Nij has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 125 of 284 (577331)
08-28-2010 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:09 AM


Re: Actually, no
that is a laugh. you say this knowing that the human slave trade is going on, women are kidnapped for the sex industry, people are smuggling humans into america.
And today this is illegal; and only a handful of nutters are still trying to justify slavery from Scripture. And this seems to me to be more civilized.
i do not think you realize what you said. you are so intent at getting me that you just blew your credibility out of the water.
I guess saying that is easier than finding anything wrong with anything I actually wrote. But perhaps ultimately less convincing.
in the book, 'the politically incorrect guide to the bible' there is a great chapter on slavery {ch. 10} you should read it and get a better picture
If you can't be bothered to recapitulate any of the points made in in, it can't be that relevant.
insteadof just quote mining to try and make me look silly.
That wasn't quote-mining, just quoting, and it requires no labor on my part to make you look silly. You're already doing such a splendid job without my aid.
it is no more murder than a doctor giving medicine to a child and the child dies. your hypocrisy is showing as is your double standard. if one is wrong so is the other.
If you have any arguments in favor of this piece of moral idiocy, now would be the time to explain what they are.
what you do not like was that God did not heal that child
What I do not like is that the parents did not seek medical help for their child.
the parent stook the appropriate action as they saw fit to do given their God given rights to raise their children. you all were NOT given rights to raise other people's children
So, one more time.
Do parents have the right to rape their children?
Does the civil power have the right to intervene?
using faith healing is NOT a crime nor is it killing people.
I never said it was.
i will tell you this, if you were in threat of losing your children becaus eyou did whatyou believed andwere charged you would be begging and whining that you did nothing worng yet others disagreed and you were sent to prison.
Or to put it another way --- if I was a stupid and wicked person who did stupid and wicked things, then I would hold stupid and wicked opinions.
But I'm not and I don't, so I see no relevance to this observation. I might as well point out that if you were a Nazi, you would say that there was nothing wrong with Nazism. While this is true, it would not be a criticism on any arguments that the actual-real-world-you might choose to advance against Nazism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:09 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 284 (577332)
08-28-2010 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:22 AM


BUT because people have the right to practice their faith, they cannot be criminalized for doing so when the results are less than ideal ...
As a matter of fact, they can be and they are.
If you felt fervently that God wanted you to stone me to death, it would still be murder if you did so. Though you might plead insanity.
since God has given everyone the right of free choice, parents will still make their own decisions and you cannot complain
So, one more time.
Do parents have the right to rape their children?
Does the state have the right to intervene?
for you would not want your arguments used against you when you did something inline with your beliefs or lack of them and lose your family while you were in prisoned.
My beliefs don't kill children.
it is easy to cry foul and make others pay the price but it is a different matter when you have to pay the cost instead.
It is easy --- since I don't kill children.
It's also easy for me to condemn (to take an example at random) arson, since I don't set fire to buildings.
And your point would be? So far, it simply seems that you're attacking me for not being a hypocrite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:22 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 127 of 284 (577334)
08-28-2010 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:25 AM


people will always make decisions others will not agree with but that doesn't mean we criminalize everybody.
It certainly does not. It means that we criminalize those people who make decisions which are ... against the law. A radical concept, I know.
sometimes you just have to take your eyes off other people and see how bad a job you are doing.
Hmm, let me just check ... no, I still haven't let a child die of neglect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:25 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3373 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 128 of 284 (577342)
08-28-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:25 AM


The parents might, just perhaps, be able to make a case for trying prayer. They cannot make any kind of case for not seeking medical help when the prayer did not work.
Parents have their children in their care, they do not own their children. Children own themselves. No-one has the right to play silly games with someone else's life just to accommodate their stupid superstitions. The idea that parents own their children leads to barbarities such as forced marriages and honour killings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:25 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 129 of 284 (577350)
08-28-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:11 AM


Out of context?
Not at all. I looked at the context. I gave the actual quotes. Show they are out of context. On one hand you claim the medical industry is incompetent and responsible for many deaths on the other hand you have no problem using doctors when it suits your needs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:11 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 284 (577361)
08-28-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:25 AM


archaeologist writes:
i am done with this thread as i have said about all i can say and i have started to repeat myself. keep in mind, these parents were wracked with emotions, and desire to see God miracuously heal their child. they did nothing wrong.
Of course they did something wrong. They willfully remained ignorant and believed their Bible over the actual message that GOD left us, reality and the brain GOD gave them. They committed an act of Hubris and Blasphemed the GOD they claim to worship by refusing to use the tools GOD gave them.
archaeologist writes:
people will always make decisions others will not agree with but that doesn't mean we criminalize everybody. itmeans that some people have to mind their own business and raise their families like God wants them to for they are not responsible for the decisions of others, they are responsible for their own.
Yes, they should be responsible, and that is the point. They were held responsible for killing the child.
archaeologist writes:
sometimes you just have to take your eyes off other people and see how bad a job you are doing.
Yes, you should.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 131 of 284 (577388)
08-28-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Coyote
08-28-2010 12:31 AM


Re: Why Are You Here?
Hi, Coyote. Are you an eastern coyote? Your avatar looks a bit robust and...wolfy.
What you say is true. He is here to preach.
And if he represented some sect that embraced the sturm und drang and tribal blood-letting of the Old Testament while rejecting the New, I could understand his conduct here.
But he claims to be a Christian. The angry, wild-eyed, Israel-cursing prophet who sweeps down from the mountaintop to, oh, sic bears on and kill 40 kids who teased him (or whatever), was supposed to go out of style with the teachings of Christ.
Unremitting divine wrath and punishment were supposed to be replaced with grace and forgiveness.
Yet arch seems to be all about punishment. He is happy women can't 'bat their eyes and hitch up their skirts' (paraphrased) to avoid punishment when, according to Christ, all anyone has to do is ask forgiveness, and they receive it by grace.
Make no mistake: I am an agnostic only by my reluctance to accept the lack of evidence of a God as absolute proof of nonexistence. Most folks would place me solidly in the atheist camp.
But I was steeped in the Protestant Christian tradition (Southern Baptist and Church of the Nazarene), and I know a devil quoting scripture when I hear one.
Edited by Omnivorous, : More sub/verb agreement.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 284 (577406)
08-28-2010 4:54 PM


What you say is true. He is here to preach.
it is amazing that you think you can read my mind. you would be wrong of course, it is the athiest that cannot discuss because they only want their opinions rubber stamped anddo not want to consider alternatives to their views.
i do not have to because i am on the side of God and he has the truth.
Make no mistake: I am an agnostic only by my reluctance to accept the lack of evidence of a God as absolute proof of nonexistence. Most folks would place me solidly in the atheist camp.
yet God did NOT say 'use evidence' now did He? he said to use faith.
But I was steeped in the Protestant Christian tradition (Southern Baptist and Church of the Nazarene), and I know a devil quoting scripture when I hear one.
yet you don't for you side with him.

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 08-28-2010 5:10 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 134 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 7:16 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 139 by hERICtic, posted 08-29-2010 9:46 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 284 (577408)
08-28-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:54 PM


archaeologist writes:
yet God did NOT say 'use evidence' now did He?
Of course he did say use evidence. Have you ever read the Bible? What was the purpose of the signs if not to be evidence? Did Jesus ask Peter to test the evidence by walking on water, ask Thomas to test the evidence by putting his hands in the holes?
Do you plan on addressing the issue of murder by prayer?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:54 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 134 of 284 (577422)
08-28-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 4:54 PM


The Devil I Know
archaeologist writes:
it is amazing that you think you can read my mind.
I don't need to read your mind; I've read your words. They suffice.
So what are you hoping to accomplish here with your Christ-like behavior? Do you think the disciples began to sound like you after the first time they met an unfriendly welcome?
Why are you here?
archaeologist writes:
yet you don't for you side with him.
Yes, I do know a devil.
I hear him encourage the slaughter of innocents, all the while throwing insults and spitting hate--and claiming to be like Christ.
I figured the one thing that could get you to reply was the magic "atheist" word. Christ would think that made me the exact person he wanted to reach out to with grace and compassion. You think it makes me someone to hate and ignore.
yet God did NOT say 'use evidence' now did He? he said to use faith.
Of course we are instructed by scripture to use evidence: How else would we know ye but by your poisonous fruit?
The Christ you claim to represent said a great many things that don't show up in your posts; he taught against a great many other things that do.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 4:54 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 135 of 284 (577475)
08-29-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Omnivorous
08-28-2010 2:20 PM


Re: Why Are You Here?
Make no mistake: I am an agnostic only by my reluctance to accept the lack of evidence of a God as absolute proof of nonexistence. Most folks would place me solidly in the atheist camp.
Nothing wrong with being both. If you don't believe in a god, you're atheist; if you don't believe it's possible to know for sure either way, then you're agnostic.
So, welcome to the A&A Club! We have half-price drinks on Thursday and partners are welcome lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 2:20 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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