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Author Topic:   If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?
Theodoric
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Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 14 of 111 (562531)
05-29-2010 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dennis780
05-29-2010 10:15 PM


Are you just lazy
or are you stupid. You have been shown multiple times how to correctly format quotes on this forum. If you click peek mode you can easily see how it is done.

As you may have noticed EVERYONE else follows this format. It makes reading a post much easier.

Do you think you are special? Since you have been shown many times how to use the db codes and you continue to not use all I can figure is that you are just refusing to. This makes you look like an ass.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 10:15 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 2:19 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 21 of 111 (563698)
06-06-2010 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by dennis780
06-06-2010 2:24 PM


Are you right about anything?
Titanium was not invented in 1932. It is a naturally occurring element.
quote:
Titanium is a chemical element with the symbol Ti and atomic number 22...
The element occurs within a number of mineral deposits, principally rutile and ilmenite, which are widely distributed in the Earth's crust and lithosphere, and it is found in almost all living things, rocks, water bodies, and soils. The metal is extracted from its principal mineral ores via the Kroll process[3] or the Hunter process.
Source

Mr. Kroll invented a way to process titanium, he did not invent titanium.

You do not even have the correct year for his patent.
Kroll Patent


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 2:24 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 22 of 111 (563705)
06-06-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dennis780
06-06-2010 2:19 PM


Re: Are you just lazy
So because I choose not to use the format you would like, you see me as unacceptable?

When did I say anything about unacceptable? It just shows your being an ass.

This could possibly explain why you don't accept other views and opinions on other subjects.

I accept different views and opinions that are evidenced.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 2:19 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 30 of 111 (564997)
06-14-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jzyehoshua
06-14-2010 3:25 AM


The law of abiogenesis says life cannot come from non-life.

There is no such scientific law. If you want to present evidence of such a thing please go ahead. Also, what does the 2nd law of thermo have to do with this discussion.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 3:25 AM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 2:13 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 32 of 111 (565075)
06-14-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jzyehoshua
06-14-2010 2:13 PM


There is actually no recognized scientific law of biogenesis either.

quote:
The spontaneous generation that Pasteur and others disproved was the idea that life forms such as mice, maggots, and bacteria can appear fully formed. They disproved a form of creationism. There is no law of biogenesis saying that very primitive life cannot form from increasingly complex molecules.

Source

When you google "law of biogenesis" you will find hundreds of fundie and creationist sites and very few science sites. The "law of biogenesis" is a creo/fundie canard and nothing more.

Oh and I am still waiting for a response on what the hell the 2nd law of thermo has to do with anything.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 2:13 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 44 of 111 (565889)
06-21-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by dennis780
06-21-2010 7:44 AM


2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, in which it states that everything tends to chaos, not order. Scientists do not deny the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Why don't you tell us what the 2nd law of thermodynamics states. After we are done laughing we will tell you what it really says and tell you how wrong you are.

I'll give you a little hint. You might want to read about it on some science sites before you answer. If you just repeat what the creofundy sites say you will be wrong, very wrong.

This is what is called a PRATT.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 7:44 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:46 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 51 of 111 (566045)
06-22-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by dennis780
06-22-2010 1:46 AM


Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
All you are doing is the Gish Gallop.

YOu make claims about 2nd law of Thermodynamics and then when pressed to explain the law you cannot. All you do is go wildly off topic it to make some claim about support for evolution falling. Obviously you know nothing about polls either. Have you looked at the raw data? Did you look what was actually asked?

tThe scientific support for evolution is at 87% for all scientists and you make a claim that there is a lack of support for evolution. I think anyone, anywhere would love 87% support.

These polls show that scientists DO NOT entirely agree on evolution, and more than likely, specific points made by it.

No group of people entirely agree on anything.

You specifically asked me to show that scientists are not in agreement with any aspect of evolution.

I did no such thing. You might want to try to keep your arguments and who you are arguing with straight.

And yes you do need to show an understanding of the 2nd law if you are going to use it as a basis for your argument.

Or would you rather just admit you are wrong and the creofundy sites you got this from are wrong.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:46 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by dennis780, posted 06-25-2010 3:17 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 53 of 111 (566080)
06-22-2010 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by IchiBan
06-22-2010 9:59 PM


Why should dennis780 pr anyone else feel embarrassed when you and other evolutionists use talkorigins

If you actually read talkorigins you will see that they give references to their sources. Unlike the creofundy sites they do not make statements without a reference to a source.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by IchiBan, posted 06-22-2010 9:59 PM IchiBan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by IchiBan, posted 06-23-2010 4:48 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 57 of 111 (566246)
06-23-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by IchiBan
06-23-2010 4:48 PM


Any evidence to back up your assertions?
Here is a fact for you, all they do over at talkorigins is setup their own straw men arguments to knock down has though they were serious arguments, and all that any creationist has, just like the evolutionists do here.

Evidence or example please.

since most of the arguments are about philosophy, rather than science.

Are you relying on those creo sites for your sources again. We have told you before that they lie.

You might want to actually look at talkorigins before you pass on lies.

Example one.

quote:
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
The Scientific Case for Common Descent
Version 2.87
Copyright 1999-2006 by Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Example 2

quote:
Fossil Hominids
The Evidence for Human Evolution
Copyright 1996-2010 by Jim Foley

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

Example 3

quote:
Claim CB200.2:
The biochemistry of blood clotting is irreducibly complex, indicating that it must have been designed.
Source:
Behe, Michael J. 1996. Darwin's Black Box, New York: The Free Press, pp. 74-97.
Response:

1. The blood clotting systems appears to be put together by using whatever long polymeric bridges are handy. There are many examples of complicated systems made from components that have useful but completely different roles in different components. There is also evidence that the genes for blood clotting (indeed, the whole genome) duplicated twice in the course of its evolution (Davidson et al. 2003). The duplication of parts and co-opting of parts with different functions gets around the "challenge" of irreducible complexity evolving gradually.

2. Blood clotting is not irreducibly complex. Some animals -- dolphins, for example -- get along fine without the Hagemann factor (Robinson et al. 1969), a component of the human blood clotting system which Behe includes in its "irreducible" complexity (Behe 1996, 84). Doolittle and Feng (1987) predicted that "lower" vertebrates would lack the "contact pathway" of blood clotting. Work on the genomes of the puffer fish and zebrafish have confirmed this (Yong and Doolittle 2003).

3. Irreducible complexity is not an obstacle to evolution and doesn't imply design.

Links:
Acton, George, 1997. Behe and the blood clotting cascade. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb97.html

Behe, M. and K. Miller. 2002. Transcript: American Museum of Natural History April 23, 2002 (Part 7). http://www.ncseweb.org/..._dr_michael_behe_dr_10_31_2002.asp

Dunkelberg, Pete, 2003. Irreducible complexity demystified. http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html

EvoWiki, 2004. Blood clotting. http://www.evowiki.org/wiki.phtml?title=Blood_clotting

Musgrave, Ian, 2005. Clotted rot for rotten clots. http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000884.html
References:

1. Davidson, C. J., E. G. Tuddenham, and J. H. McVey. 2003. 450 million years of hemostasis. Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis 1: 1478-1497.
2. Robinson, A. J., M. Kropatkin, and P. M. Aggeler. 1969. Hagemann factor (factor XII) deficiency in marine mammals. Science 166: 1420-1422.

Further Reading:
Doolittle, Russell F., 1997. A delicate balance. Boston Review (Feb./Mar.), http://bostonreview.net/BR22.1/doolittle.html
Ussery, David, 1999. A biochemist's response to "The biochemical challenge to evolution". Bios 70: 40-45. http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/staff/dave/Behe.html



http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_2.html

Are you ready to admit you are passing on lies. It is amazing how readily fundies bear false witness.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by IchiBan, posted 06-23-2010 4:48 PM IchiBan has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 62 of 111 (566647)
06-25-2010 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dennis780
06-25-2010 3:17 PM


Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
The Law of Entropy refers to the amount of disorder, or order in a system. If states that left alone, the amount of disodered possibilities are many more than ordered ones.

Wrong! It says nothing of the sort.

quote:
It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease.

Source

Entropy is not the same thing as disorder.
Stop reading the creo sites. They are lying to you.

Also, keep in mind. The earth is not a closed system so your argument fails on that alone.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by dennis780, posted 06-25-2010 3:17 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 63 of 111 (566649)
06-25-2010 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Catholic Scientist
06-25-2010 3:24 PM


Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
No, that's false... Snowflakes.

Silly CS. Don't you know each is created by hand by an angel.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Catholic Scientist, posted 06-25-2010 3:24 PM Catholic Scientist has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 66 of 111 (566751)
06-26-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by dennis780
06-26-2010 2:48 PM


Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
I see you still refuse to actually look at scientific sources for your information about science. This whole order, disorder crap you creos keep pushing is bullshit.

Like I have told you before, go to a non-creo site. That way you will get a true scientific explanation about thermodynamics. Not creo bullshit.

Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you.

You have been told by many people that you are wrong, but you refuse to do the research to prove your assertion or to learn where you are wrong. You are like a mindless robot and/or are delusional. You can not change the law to be what you want. It is what it is. It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim.

In a nutshell. You are wrong.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:56 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 73 of 111 (576090)
08-22-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by dennis780
08-20-2010 9:56 PM


Is there a point?
Your point is?

Here is my post.

Theodoric writes:

I see you still refuse to actually look at scientific sources for your information about science. This whole order, disorder crap you creos keep pushing is bullshit.

Like I have told you before, go to a non-creo site. That way you will get a true scientific explanation about thermodynamics. Not creo bullshit.

Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you.

You have been told by many people that you are wrong, but you refuse to do the research to prove your assertion or to learn where you are wrong. You are like a mindless robot and/or are delusional. You can not change the law to be what you want. It is what it is. It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim.

In a nutshell. You are wrong.

How does you cut and paste address this?

By the way you might want to read the forum rules.

quote:
5. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

6. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.



Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:56 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:46 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 77 of 111 (578056)
08-31-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:46 AM


I guess the point is made
Ringo and Dr A have already responded to try to show you your error so I won't bother. You won't listen anyway.

What you are doing is exactly what the creo sites do. You search for a certain word and a certain sentence and use that one sentence as the whole argument. Read the whole wiki article, or better yet read a whole science article about entropy. Then if you really think it means what you have been claiming then you go try to make an argument for it. But let me give you some advice. No scientist thinks entropy is what you think it is. Because it isn't. You don't get to make up your own definitions and explanations of scientific terms.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:46 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:50 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 88 of 111 (578281)
09-01-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:50 AM


How about some science info
Try these on for size. They may be a little complex for you since you seem to think wiki is a hard science site.

quote:
is often asserted by creationists that the evolution of life is impossible because this would require an increase in order, whereas the second law of thermodynamics states that "in any natural process the amount of disorder increases", or some similar claim. "Entropy" is frequently used as a synonym for "disorder".

Of course, this represents a serious misunderstanding of what thermodynamics actually states. It can be explained patiently (or less than patiently, after the 1000th iteration or so) that entropy only strictly increases in an isolated system; that there are no completely isolated systems in nature, save maybe the universe as a whole; and that the whole idea of isolated systems is really an abstraction for pedagogical purposes; but still the creationist won't let go. There just has to be some reason why "order cannot come from disorder", and the reason must be in thermodynamics. That's the science that talks about order and disorder, isn't it?

In fact, it isn't. Look through any thermodynamics text. You will find discussions about ideal gases, heat engines, changes of state, equilibrium, chemical reactions, and the energy density and pressure of radiation. Entropy and the second law are powerful tools that allow one to calculate the properties of systems at equilibrium. At the very most, there may be a paragraph or two somewhere in that thick book alluding to some kind of relation between entropy and "disorder". Writers of pop science books like to make the same kind of relation, and will ask their readers to consider things like the state of their rooms--tidy or messy--and compare the (supposed) decrease in orderliness of the room over time to the "tendency of entropy to increase". But what of entropy and disorder? Where does that identification fit into the structure of thermodynamics?

The answer is, nowhere. It is not an axiom or first principle, it is not derived from any other basic principles, and nowhere is it required or even used at all to do any of the science to which thermodynamics applies. It is simply irrelevant and out of place except as an interesting aside. The only reason that that identification has been made stems from the different field of study called "statistical mechanics". Statistical mechanics explains thermodynamics, which is a science based on observed phenomena of macroscopic entities, such as a cylinder full of gas, in terms of more basic physics of microscopic entities, such as the collection of molecules that comprises the gas. This was a great achievement of nineteenth-century physics, led by Ludwig Boltzmann, who wrote down the only equation that connects entropy with any concept that might be called "disorder". In fact, what is commonly called "disorder" in Boltzmann's entropy equation has a meaning quite different from what creationists--and some writers of pop science--mean by disorder.

The equation in question reads:

S = k ln W.

That admittedly won't tell the reader much without some background. Boltzmann's entropy equation talks about a specific kind of system--an isolated system with a specified constant total energy E (although the constant E does not explicitly appear in the equation, it is implied and crucial) in a state of equilibrium. It tells us how to calculate the entropy, S, of that system in terms of the microscopic particles (molecules) which make it up. On the right hand side, k is a universal constant now known as Boltzmann's constant [1.38 10-23 joules/kelvin, for the curious --Ed]. The function "ln" is the natural logarithm, and the argument of the logarithm function is the quantity W. W is a pure number that connects the microscopic with the macroscopic.


You need to read the whole article.

Next, try this explanation

Finally

quote:
The creationist argument is that advanced organisms are
more orderly than primitive organisms, and hence as evolution
proceeds living things become more ordered, that is less
disordered, that is less entropic. Because the second law of
thermodynamics prohibits a decrease in entropy, it therefore
prohibits biological evolution.
This argument rests upon two misconceptions about entropy.
Disorder is a metaphor for entropy, not a definition for
entropy.3,4 Metaphors are valuable only when they are not
identical in all respects to their targets. For example, a
map of Caracas is a metaphor for the surface of the Earth
at Caracas, in that the map has a similar arrangement but a
dissimilar scale. If the map had the same arrangement and
scale as Caracas, it would be no easier to navigate using
the map than it would be to navigate by going directly to
Caracas and wandering the streets. The metaphor of disorder
for entropy is valuable and thus imperfect. For example,
take some ice cubes out of your freezer, smash
them, toss the shards into a bowl, and then allow the ice to
melt. The jumble of ice shards certainly seems more disorderly
than the bowl of smooth liquid water, yet the liquid
water has the greater entropy.5
Although the entropy of the universe increases with time,
the entropy of any part of the universe can decrease with
time, so long as that decrease is compensated by an even
larger increase in some other part of the universe.6 For
example, any hot cup of coffee left to its own devices on a
tabletop decreases in entropy.

Daniel F. Styer, "Entropy and evolution," American Journal of Physics, Vol. 76, No. 11, November 2008,

Do you still want to argue with scientists about this? Is this "proof" for you?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:50 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

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