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Author Topic:   Church Is Not Enough?
Tram law
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 1 of 110 (578385)
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


For proponents of putting religion in schools, why isn't Church and the home enough? Why must religion be taught in schools?

As for me, I will never support religion in schools. Religion is very divisive in nature, even at its most benign. For example, Christianity teaches that only proper Christians get to go to heaven, and only Christianity teaches that, at least that's what I've been told growing up, and it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, if you're not a proper Christian you do not get to go. And for me, if God exists, it is only God who gets to determine who is a proper Christian.

But the thing about being divisive, is that it often leads to bullying. Goth kids are often bullied by other students for one example, simply because they express themselves in a different manner than most people. Other schools ban the display of gang symbols and colors and have other dress codes to prevent fighting in order to keep order. And I believe that allowing religion in school you must allow all religions, even unpopular ones such as Satanism.

But as most religions fight each other for dominance, all religions will encourage students to be discriminated against. Here is one example of that kind of discrimination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npqbgBHYSKk

(I don't know how to embed videos or if that feature is available for this particular forum)

And shouldn't school prevent that kind of discrimination? Shouldn't school be all inclusive and secular in order to provide a safe environment for our students to get the education they require?

To that end, I have to ask, why isn't Church and the home enough?


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3497
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 110 (578531)
09-01-2010 10:25 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Church Is Not Enough? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
Member
Posts: 24504
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 110 (578534)
09-01-2010 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


I believe that religion should be taught in all schools. I outlined most of my reasoning in this thread, but in its simplest form, religion has and continues to play a very large place in human societies and I believe that we should all understand the place religion plays for both good and bad.

Having gone through an education where religions played a very major part I can also say with some confidence that while fights did happen, religion was never the cause.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 110 (578642)
09-02-2010 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


For proponents of putting religion in schools, why isn't Church and the home enough? Why must religion be taught in schools?

it would be if schools were supportive and did not teach things that were contrary to the children's beliefs or the beliefs of their parents.

i grew up when there was bible reading and prayer in pubic schools and it made the institution a better place. no one complained as people knew it was something they endured but it certainly kept the violence, and other sins down so children could actually learn in class.

Religion is very divisive in nature, even at its most benign. For example, Christianity teaches that only proper Christians get to go to heaven, and only Christianity teaches that, at least that's what I've been told growing up, and it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, if you're not a proper Christian you do not get to go. And for me, if God exists, it is only God who gets to determine who is a proper Christian.

yes it is and God has. He even let everyone know about it. you find how to be a proper christian i the Bible--i would reccommend only 3 translations one should use, KJV, NIV, NASB to get the correct information.

But the thing about being divisive, is that it often leads to bullying.

this was not a result of christianity it comes from the sin nature. bullying is sin no matter who does it.

But as most religions fight each other for dominance,

christianity doesn't have to do this. it is supposed to preach the truth and live by God's ways. we do not need dominance, nor political power but too often misguided people take the wrong road and create stumbling blocks to Christ because they invoke christianity but do not follow it correctly.

your video didn't show where the person got kicked out of school. it was the pledge of allegience not a christian prayer so how does it relate to your point? i also see no reason for that to take place at the beginning of a game.

To that end, I have to ask, why isn't Church and the home enough?

because bad behavior isn't limited to the church and home and not all homes teach true morality or christian beliefs, for that matter nor do some churches.


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nator
Member (Idle past 922 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 110 (578649)
09-02-2010 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-02-2010 7:14 AM


it would be if schools were supportive and did not teach things that were contrary to the children's beliefs or the beliefs of their parents.

So, do you suggest segregating all children into schools based upon compatibility of religious beliefs? That might be difficult, because even within single congregations, some parents might differ in their beliefs.

i grew up when there was bible reading and prayer in pubic schools and it made the institution a better place. no one complained as people knew it was something they endured but it certainly kept the violence, and other sins down so children could actually learn in class.

How do you know it was the bible reading and not other factors that kept the violence down? What was the class size when you were in school? How mixed culturally was your community? How well-funded was your school district? Were two incomes or just one required to make ends meet back then?

Also, imagine that you lived in a predominantly Muslim area, so you had to "endure" being made to pray towards Mecca several times during the school year. Would that be acceptable to you or your parents? If not, why would you require people of other religions to endure Christian prayers in public school?

He even let everyone know about it.

Well no, he didn't.

i would reccommend only 3 translations one should use, KJV, NIV, NASB to get the correct information.

And we should take your advice in this matter why, exactly? You're just a fallable person who believes he knows the mind of God, just like thousands of other people who contradict you.

it was the pledge of allegience not a christian prayer

Er, since when do people say the pledge of allegience standing in the circle with their heads bowed?

because bad behavior isn't limited to the church and home and not all homes teach true morality or christian beliefs, for that matter nor do some churches.

Teaching good behavior and morals has nothing to do with Christianity. Being a christian doesn't make people better behaved or more moral. Having a good moral code and following it is what results in good behavior, and people can easily get that without any kind of religion.

We have 2000 years of moral philosophy that doesn't mention Christianity or sin at all, you know.

Edited by returninator, : fixed quote box

Edited by returninator, : No reason given.


'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy

"What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell

"Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov

"We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory


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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 6 of 110 (578660)
09-02-2010 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-02-2010 7:14 AM


archie writes:

Tram writes:

for proponents of putting religion in schools, why isn't Church and the home enough? Why must religion be taught in schools?

it would be if schools were supportive and did not teach things that were contrary to the children's beliefs or the beliefs of their parents.

The question is, "Why must religion be taught in schools?" I'm not sure what your response is in reference to, but it sure doesn't answer the question.

i would reccommend only 3 translations one should use, KJV, NIV, NASB to get the correct information.

Why only those three? You know, there are many threads on this forum alone in which proponents of the KJV and NIV engage in some of the bloodiest debates about whose translation is "most inspired." So according to you, either is fine? Why? Were the fellas who determined the inclusion, order, and translation of these particular versions somehow "more inspired" than others?

christianity doesn't have to do this. it is supposed to preach the truth and live by God's ways.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. So why doesn't it, then? Do only the "true" Christians have the ability to "preach truth"?

because bad behavior isn't limited to the church and home and not all homes teach true morality or christian beliefs, for that matter nor do some churches.

If this is your stab at answering the question, I'll just ask again: "Why?" Why would teaching religion in schools remedy this?


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964
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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4452
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 110 (578688)
09-02-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-02-2010 7:14 AM


Why is Church Not Enough?
quote:
it would be if schools were supportive and did not teach things that were contrary to the children's beliefs or the beliefs of their parents.
Given the various beliefs even within one religion, it seems better to stay away from teaching any religion. I can see a place for a class giving an overview of all religions, but not trying to teach the tenants of any specific religion. To me that is the job of the respective religious institutions.

quote:
this was not a result of christianity it comes from the sin nature. bullying is sin no matter who does it.
I agree that bullying isn't necessarily indigenous to the religious.

quote:
your video didn't show where the person got kicked out of school. it was the pledge of allegience not a christian prayer so how does it relate to your point? i also see no reason for that to take place at the beginning of a game.
If you listen carefully, they are saying the Lord's Prayer. You can hear them say, "Give us this day our daily bread." Also the comment below the video tells us that the child was kicked out of school and that a lawsuit was filed against the school.

Personally, I feel it is out of line to kick someone out of school for an after school event. An after school sporting event has nothing to do with the education the child is working towards. If the sporting event doesn't add to their GPA, then any actions should not potentially impact their GPA. IOW, if the kid was smoking, kick them off the team, don't kick them out of school. IMO, no action should have been taken in this situation anyway especially since it is a public school.

quote:
because bad behavior isn't limited to the church and home and not all homes teach true morality or christian beliefs, for that matter nor do some churches.
Schools should only be tasked with enforcing the right behavior that makes school safe and nonthreating for teachers and children. They shouldn't be tasked with teaching what is right and wrong for any specific religion. That is the religions job, whether they do a good job of it or not.

I grew up when there was prayer in school, but there were still bullies and misbehavior. One of them was a preacher's son! My school was all white and predominantly Christian as far as I knew (Protestant/Catholic). I didn't really care. If there were those who were religion free, I didn't notice. Today the same area is much more diverse in race and religion.

I feel an academic learning of religions is helpful in schools and would hopefully promote better understanding between religions. The tenants of a religion need to be taught by the respective religious institutions. Too many variations for a public school to handle. I also feel a parent should be able to have their child opt out of any religious class if they choose.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5107
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 8 of 110 (578693)
09-02-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


My kids studied religion in school. But that was mostly a study of the history and social/cultural significance of religion. I remember their amusement at the time that their classes got to the topic of The Diet of Worms.

The school did not try to indoctrinate them with the dogma.

My point: It really depends on what is taught. Properly done, religion should be part of education because of the importance of religion both historically and within modern American culture.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 3696
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 110 (578704)
09-02-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


Tram law writes:

For example, Christianity teaches that only proper Christians get to go to heaven, and only Christianity teaches that, at least that's what I've been told growing up, and it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, if you're not a proper Christian you do not get to go.

That is only what a particular Christian sect will tell you, it isn't what the Bible says.

Tram law writes:

And for me, if God exists, it is only God who gets to determine who is a proper Christian.

I'm quite sure God isn't concerned about the definition of words. God is concerned about the condition of your heart.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 4528
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 10 of 110 (578739)
09-02-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-02-2010 7:14 AM


it would be if schools were supportive and did not teach things that were contrary to the children's beliefs or the beliefs of their parents.

And if those beliefs are demonstrably wrong?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4452
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 110 (578747)
09-02-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
09-02-2010 1:06 PM


Wrong Beliefs Not the Issue
quote:
And if those beliefs are demonstrably wrong?
Irrelevant to the discussion.

Since religious groups have the means to teach their followers, why any need to teach a religion in school other than general educational knowledge? IOW, an overview of various religions.

If religions want their tenants taught in school, then the answer seems to be that they aren't reaching enough people through their own channels or their own channels are ineffective.

I'm not sure what "things" archaeologist feels are being taught contrary to any religious belief, but the public school system teaches what man has discovered. If that is contrary to what religion teaches, then that's the religion's problem.

Try to address statements that deal with the topic, not the one's that are irrelevant to the topic.


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Tram law
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 12 of 110 (578754)
09-02-2010 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
09-02-2010 11:22 AM


quote:

I'm quite sure God isn't concerned about the definition of words. God is concerned about the condition of your heart.


If there is a kind and loving God.

Of course I follow the atheists' wager.


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Tram law
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 13 of 110 (578758)
09-02-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
09-02-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Why is Church Not Enough?
quote:

Schools should only be tasked with enforcing the right behavior that makes school safe and nonthreatening for teachers and children.

So how do we determine what is safe and nonthreatening behavior, and how do we do that and enforce it without stepping on the students' civil rights?

Edited by Tram law, : added "we do"


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jar
Member
Posts: 24504
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 110 (578760)
09-02-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tram law
09-02-2010 2:19 PM


Re: Why is Church Not Enough?
So how do we determine what is safe and nonthreatening behavior, and how do that and enforce it without stepping on the students' civil rights?

Should students have any rights?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 15 of 110 (578764)
09-02-2010 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-02-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Why is Church Not Enough?
Generally speaking no, they don't have rights until they get to adult age.

However, I believe the exceptions have been expressed in some lawsuits.

For example, suits like in this article:

http://www.aclu.org/...ding-teenager-wearing-tuxedo-yearbook

But that is probably a subject for another thread.


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