Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 298 of 406 (578999)
09-03-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Omnivorous
09-03-2010 12:25 AM


Re: If you have nothing to hide, you don't need rights.
Hey, my name riverrat came when I was a kid, back in the CB days, it was my handle. It was the name of a boat. Rat being a bigblock chevy engine (aka rat motor). I did not know about the riverrats at that time. It has been the name on my boat, and my handle for 35 years.
When people make the kind of argument I'm making to you, they're asking you to imagine being subject to investigations, with all the public and private contumny and shame that entails, for no other reason than who you are.
That is obviously not a good reason. But I keep thinking about if someone reports you to social services for child abuse, you automatically get investigated, just from an accusation. You can really mess with your neighbor if you want. Of course that does not make it right. People should not get investigated for any reason. But if a flag goes up, then an investigation needs to be done, to clear your name, and find out who is wrong. Obviously, someone is wrong here. It is really not that big of a deal. If you get pulled over, and if the police is suspicious for any reason, they can search your car.
To let this all go, and let the people solve it would be wrong IMO.
People are making a lot of accusations, and if the Muslims aren't doing anything wrong, then the people making those accusations, need to be silenced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2010 12:25 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Huntard, posted 09-03-2010 10:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 300 of 406 (579001)
09-03-2010 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Rrhain
09-03-2010 12:33 AM


"Rrhain" writes:
That's why so many Christians get away with it. The typical US terrorist is a white, Christian male.
Just like you, riVeRraT.
Yep. You are barking up the wrong tree Rrhain, I guess you missed the part of the thread where I said I support the building of the Mosque.
Why aren't you protesting Bill Keller's little endeavour?
We are not talking about him, and I have no idea who he is. I have not seen him in the news, and there seems to be no apparent problem in my little world.
You're calling him a sleeper terrorist ("It is a terrorists [sic] job to hide in plain sight.")
I have not called him anything. I have no fucking clue who he is, or what he is about.
Constitutional violations of fundamental rights to be left alone and be free from governmental intrusion.
Great, I guess no one should ever be investigated ever, for any reason. We really need to get rid of our investigators.
I'm sure you'll feel perfectly fine in having me "investigate" you to ensure that you're not hiding something, right? After all, you're a white, male Christian.
No one is accusing me of anything. Make a valid comparison please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Rrhain, posted 09-03-2010 12:33 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 301 of 406 (579002)
09-03-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Huntard
09-03-2010 10:09 AM


Re: If you have nothing to hide, you don't need rights.
"Huntard" writes:
Do you really think that any investigation is going to shut the nutters up?
Good point. Some people are going to hate no matter what. But it might shut matters up enough to get it out of the news, and convince people who aren't sure what is going on to the truth. It will also expose those haters. Isn't that a good thing?
Should we just continue letting the haters hate? Like everyone who hates me here, and has framed me to be saying something I am not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Huntard, posted 09-03-2010 10:09 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Huntard, posted 09-03-2010 10:19 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 302 of 406 (579003)
09-03-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
09-03-2010 9:30 AM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"jar" writes:
If you think we are at War, then we have already lost.
I don't think we are at war, I know it. What I don't know is, who exactly is our enemy. What uniform does he wear? Where does he live?
If you think safety is worth destroying the Constitution then we have already lost.
Very true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 09-03-2010 9:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 09-03-2010 10:25 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 332 of 406 (579980)
09-07-2010 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by hooah212002
09-03-2010 11:44 AM


Re: Listen
"hooah212002" writes:
All of those passages, which are from the christian bible, instruct followers to kill non-believers. Maybe you should read the book.
Which has nothing to do with today, or with what Jesus taught us to do. It is OT, similar to the barbaric ways of other religions that still practice those kinds of ideas. It's a shame we need to point this out to you. Modern Christians do not follow the practices of the OT. Jesus was the completion of the law. Maybe you should read the book, this time with an open mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2010 11:44 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 345 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2010 8:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 334 of 406 (579982)
09-07-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Rrhain
09-04-2010 4:06 AM


As usual Rhain, you fly off the handle and are completely illogical.
"Rhain" writes:
"Sacrificing our safety"? Just what do you think is going to happen if two Muslims are allowed to get together?
Um, one hyphenated word:
Al-Farooq
Yes. And you haven't given any reason other than paranoia.
It's not my idea to investigate them, and I am sure they are being investigated. If people start accusing others of things, then an investigation needs to be done, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with paranoia on my part, or racism, or anything else, it is just common sense, and the usual way things are done. It is unfortunate that people get investigated from empty accusations, but sometimes they are not empty accusations, and that is how bad people get caught. Either way the bad person will get caught, because if the investigation reveals that people are just being racist, then we will know.
Remember, I am not saying just to investigate the Mosque, I am saying investigate the accusers also.
It is really not a problem, and you agree, because you have gone and done a little homework yourself, and commenced your own investigation, and came up with an answer. So wtf is the problem? Are you paranoid also?
So it's ok for you to go and investigate this situation, but it is not ok for me to suggest that it might be a good idea to? More hypocrisy from you, highly illogical. Once again your emotions get the best of you, and you miss out on the finer things in life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:06 AM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 336 of 406 (579984)
09-07-2010 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Rrhain
09-04-2010 4:14 AM


"Rhain" writes:
No. "Someone said" is hardly grounds for search.
You have much to learn. It is absolutely enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:14 AM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 337 of 406 (579985)
09-07-2010 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Rrhain
09-04-2010 4:37 AM


"Rrhain" writes:
You also want Muslims under investigation.
No I don't.
you only seem to get upset with regard to Muslims, not Christians.
No I don't.
Just because the news isn't covering it (and by the way, it is...the fact that you aren't paying attention is not evidence that it isn't being covered.
It has nothing to do with this thread. feel free to start another one, and I would express my views on it, after I learn a little about it. funny how you accuse me of how I feel about something I know nothing about.
Surely you have no problem with being investigated, right?
No I don't.
What I have a problem with is after the investigation, the people falsely accusing me of something should pay for the hassle they caused me.
Would you know one if it bit you?
Yep, see two posts ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:37 AM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 338 of 406 (579987)
09-07-2010 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Dr Adequate
09-04-2010 5:07 AM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"Dr.Adequate" writes:
Actually, it does mean something. It means that the FBI has checked them out, that the State Department under Bush has checked them out, and that the State Department under Obama has checked them out.
Cool, thanks for supporting what I was saying.
So, are you, or are you not, a secret Muslim terrorist? Of course, you appear not to be, but it is your job to hide in plain sight, and you haven't been checked out by the FBI and two successive State Departments.
Since no-one has accused me of anything, then I am ok. But before you decide to accuse me of anything, you should also be willing to pay the price if you are wrong, and are just making unfounded racist remarks.
You seem to be implying that you said that they should be checked out further
I didn't mean that.
Two successive governments have apparently investigated the question, and yet people are not calm.
I think the situation has diminished a bit. I also think media is to blame for most of this, as usual. You could report about these things without creating a stir, and they don't because they want a stir. Kind of like what Rrhain does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-04-2010 5:07 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2010 12:46 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 375 of 406 (580199)
09-08-2010 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by hooah212002
09-07-2010 8:45 AM


Re: Listen
"hooah212002" writes:
Not that I care right now to get into a discussion about what the bible means, but I am pretty sure jesus did not come to change the law of the OT. But you see, anyone can interpret the words of the bible however they want and there is no way YOU can tell me I am wrong just because it's not what you want to hear.
Not that you care? You are the one telling us what you think the bible means quote mining the entire bible, and taking things out of context.
Completion of the law was to change it. And things did change.
Yes you are right, anyone can use anything for justification for doing the WRONG thing. That doesn't make the bible bad, or any book bad, that makes people bad.
What pisses me off is when people such as yourself, who come across as being smart, confuse those thoughts.
I don't blame the Koran, like those idiots in Florida, I blame people.
*Edit*
My summary:
I agree with nwr. Even though I believe in Jesus, I am not fan of religion. Religion pisses me off. To me, the first amendment is greater than whether it is ethically right or not to build a Mosque next to ground zero.
Given the track record of the terrorists, we have to question things they do. They used a Mosque in Brooklyn to harbor the guy who first tried to blow up the towers. They hide in Mosques. It's only natural that we would look there to see if they were harboring any.
Given the track record of many religious leaders, of all religions, I think that religious organizations should not be so "exempt" from being investigated. The FBI could not at the time of the first tower bombing investigate Al-Farooq Mosque in Brooklyn, because of their "religious status".
Religion is just man, it's not God.
Oh, and Rrhain, I don't know where you got the idea that Fox was funding the Mosque, I have not found anything online that says that. All I found was that the funding was sketchy, and they were even offered money from known terrorist leaders(or supporters of terrorism).
I understand that this doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does put up a flag, and give probably cause.
You managed to 100% mis-represent me in your raging quote mining rants. All I can say is you are completely wrong about me, and that you should probably take a print out of the conversation and see a psychiatrist.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2010 8:45 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 7:33 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2010 12:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 378 by Omnivorous, posted 09-08-2010 1:32 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 380 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 3:09 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 383 of 406 (580351)
09-08-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by frako
09-08-2010 7:33 AM


Re: Listen
Frako, you are completely off topic, all those answer lie within this forum, feel free to search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 7:33 AM frako has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 384 of 406 (580354)
09-08-2010 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Dr Adequate
09-08-2010 12:20 PM


Re: Listen
Thanks for the link Dr.Adequate.
Mosque-a-teers, lol.
Wasn't it the daily show that said: the fact that Muslims can build a Mosque next to ground zero here in the US speaks a lot about the US, and the fact that they would build one speaks a lot about Muslims?
So, is there any evidence for this, or is this just more stuff that people have made up?
Different news articles (not blogs) I found while googling, who the hell knows if they are true or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2010 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 385 of 406 (580355)
09-08-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Omnivorous
09-08-2010 1:32 PM


Re: Muslim Ownership of Fox
"Omnivorous" writes:
Fox News reported on the troublesome nature of one person funding the Cordoba center, suggesting that the man had ties to terrorism.
Fox News was either evil or stupid (or both) for not mentioning that Alwaleed bin Talal, the Saudi in question, is News Corp.'s largest shareholder aside from Murdoch.
So Fox news is not directly funding the Mosque, just one of it's major (7%) contributors?
*EDIT* just saw the final request for one statement. I was just answering people. I still stick by everything I said so far. The Muslims can build a Mosque wherever they want, freedom of religion>terroism/whatever. Even if the founders were guilty of terrorist associations, they could still build it there. I don't care, and NYC is my home.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Omnivorous, posted 09-08-2010 1:32 PM Omnivorous has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 387 of 406 (580453)
09-09-2010 7:04 AM


wtf
You know this issue continues. I think ending this thread would be premature. But we should keep it on topic.
I was watching an excerpt from the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf interview on Larry King live, and he said he has spent his whole life promoting peace. Which was refreshing to hear, but then he followed it up by saying that the decisions, and things we say from this point on about this whole Mosque deal can lead to attacks on us? That we can anger certain people over this? We have to be very careful? "our national security now hinges on how we deal with this?"It almost sounded like a threat to me. Like he knew who and what would happen if we didn't support this. Was kind of weird. Sounded like what an abusive husband would say to his wife right before he beats her for leaving him. Maybe Rrhain is right, I am paranoid.
Error
Edited by riVeRraT, : added video link

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Huntard, posted 09-09-2010 7:12 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 390 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2010 7:31 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 391 by jar, posted 09-09-2010 8:45 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 401 of 406 (580508)
09-09-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by PaulK
09-09-2010 7:31 AM


Re: wtf
Pretty good point. I just got the feeling it was threat like. I mean we shouldn't let them build the Mosque out of fear of being attack. That's just bullshit. That will never be a reason to let them build it. Why mention it?
Muslims get to build Mosques in the US because of our constitution and nothing more. Don't extremists hate freedom of religion? Kind of doesn't make sense.
I also didn't like him preaching Christianity. Stick to your own religion, thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2010 7:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2010 2:18 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 403 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2010 2:44 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024