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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 61 of 657 (580731)
09-10-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Huntard
09-10-2010 1:06 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Huntard writes:
Yes. but Sinai is also a part of Arabia, so sources saying that the mountain was located "in Arabia", does not help your cause one bit.
What is relative here is what is not what the Sinai Peninsula is called today. What is relative is that it was known as the Wilderness of Paran in Old Testament times. The East side of the Gulf of Aqaba was known as the land of the Midianites who occupied that region.
The text has Moses encountering his father-in-law in the land of Midian where Mt Sinai was, after crossing the Red Sea. Go Figure; or are you denying all of this?.
Are you denying that the Sinai Peninsula was not known as the Sinai Peninsula in Moses's day?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2010 1:06 AM Huntard has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 62 of 657 (580737)
09-10-2010 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by bluescat48
09-10-2010 1:29 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Bluescat writes:
When the Israelites reached Sinai, they were in Midian.
That's because, according to the Biblical record, Mt Sinai was in the land of Midian in Western Arabia bordering the East Gulf of Aqaba, then known as a wing of the Red Sea.
Everything jives nicely with the Biblical record, with all of the corroborating evidence where it should be expected to be according the the Biblical record.
It was the Biblical record that led amature explorer/archeologist, Ron Wyatt to the region where he pioneered the discovery of this evidence. More professional people with marine research equipment picked up where Wyatt, Fassold and others left off.
Alas, the secular world has no interest in anything Biblical. The secular world seeks to undermine it an debunk it so as not to be held accountable to a higher power.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2010 1:29 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:48 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 63 of 657 (580745)
09-10-2010 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 9:29 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buz writes:
Everything jives nicely with the Biblical record, with all of the corroborating evidence where it should be expected to be according the the Biblical record.
Well let's add up the "corroborating evidence" presented so far.
Altar of the Golden Calf? Nope. No altar, no golden calf, no calf at all, just misrepresented and doctored evidence.
Chariot wheels? Nope, no chariot wheels.
Rock with signs of water stream? Nope. Just pretty common split rock and NO signs of water erosion but lots of evidence of chemical and temperature flaking.
So exactly where is all the corroborating evidence Buz?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 9:29 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 64 of 657 (580747)
09-10-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
09-10-2010 1:53 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:
Irrelevant. The point is that in NT times "Arabia" included Sinai and so when the NT places Mount Sinai in "Arabia" it does NOT exclude the traditional location. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant.
Are you keeping up, Paul? The land of Midian waswhere Moses encountered his father-in-law, Jethro who was a Midianite after he crossed the Red Sea.
The Wilderness of Paran is what the Sinai Peninsula was known as and not as Arabia perse. Had Moses crossed the Red Sea anywhere else he would not have ended up in the land of Midian.
2. A map of the land of the Midianites, shows it as the whole wilderness area East of What is now known as the Gulf of Aqaba (then, a wing of the Red Sea. )
It is my understanding that what later became known as part of Arabia was, in Moses's day, known as the land of Midian.
PaulK writes:
So, since Exodus implies that Mount Sinai is not in Midian it looks that Wyatt is wrong.
(Note also that your source claims:
During the time of the Exodus, their territory apparently also included portions of the Sinai Peninsula.
Sigh. Again, the real Mt Sinai was/is in what was known as the land of Midian, nomadic herdsmen and the book of Exodus does not imply that Mt Sinai is not in the land of Midian, that I am aware of. What is your source?
PaulK writes:
I also note that you provide no evidence of any Biblical reference to mountains with a wadi or dry river providing a route through for the crossing site. May I take it that you concede that there is no such reference ?
Go figure. The text says that they were able to travel to the crossing site and that they were entrapped with no way out but back from where they came (where the persuing army was) or into the sea. The text also clearly implies that the area in which they were entrapped was large enough for a large amount of people. It also clearly implies that it was across the sea from the land of Midian. They had to be entrapped by the rugged terrain through which a wadi likely cut a valley so as to get to the sea and entrap themselves with no other exit.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 1:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2010 1:05 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 68 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2010 3:13 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 65 of 657 (580750)
09-10-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
09-10-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Jar's Strawmen
None of the above are revelant, Jar. The only topography which is revelant is the Western Gulf of Aqaba shoreline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 10:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 657 (580752)
09-10-2010 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 10:07 PM


Re: Jar's Strawmen
Are you seriously saying that the Romans that built roads through the Alps, through the Atlas Mountains, through the Pyrenees, the Caucuses and the Apennines couldn't build a road through the little hills found in Saudi Arabia?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 10:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 67 of 657 (580763)
09-11-2010 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 10:01 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Are you keeping up, Paul? The land of Midian waswhere Moses encountered his father-in-law, Jethro who was a Midianite after he crossed the Red Sea.
Which could still be the Sinai Peninsula, since the Sinai peninsula was part of Midian. Why would Pharoah's army chase them into the Sinai? It makes more sense that they were trapped on the west arm of the Red Sea rather than the East arm, since the area would still be in Egypt not Midian.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 10:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 7:58 AM bluescat48 has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 68 of 657 (580778)
09-11-2010 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 10:01 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
Are you keeping up, Paul? The land of Midian waswhere Moses encountered his father-in-law, Jethro who was a Midianite after he crossed the Red Sea.
Obviously you aren't keeping up, since the quote clearly shows that you are replying to the NT locating Mt. Sinai in Arabia !
In fact Exodus does NOT say that Jethro met Moses in Midian after the Red sea crossing. The only location given for the meeting is "in the wilderness" (18:5)
quote:
.Sigh. Again, the real Mt Sinai was/is in what was known as the land of Midian, nomadic herdsmen and the book of Exodus does not imply that Mt Sinai is not in the land of Midian, that I am aware of. What is your source?
The Bible. Exodus 18:27 tells us that Jethro returned to "his own land" after the meeting. If his own land is Midian then surely the meeting is not in Midian.
quote:
Go figure. The text says that they were able to travel to the crossing site and that they were entrapped with no way out but back from where they came (where the persuing army was) or into the sea
Exodus 14 says no such thing. Indeed it seems clear that the Egyptians are simply moving faster than the Israelites, implying clear ground for the chariots. According to Exodus 14:25 God even intervenes to slow the chariots down, suggesting that the chariots would have caught the Israelites if there was no interference.
quote:
The text also clearly implies that the area in which they were entrapped was large enough for a large amount of people. It also clearly implies that it was across the sea from the land of Midian. They had to be entrapped by the rugged terrain through which a wadi likely cut a valley so as to get to the sea and entrap themselves with no other exit.
None of this is in the text. Why don't you actually cite chapter and verse rather than simply repeating your assertions ? I know how you hate reading the Bible but it really is necessary if you want to discuss what it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 10:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 8:11 AM PaulK has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 69 of 657 (580783)
09-11-2010 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by bluescat48
09-11-2010 1:05 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Bluescat writes:
Which could still be the Sinai Peninsula, since the Sinai peninsula was part of Midian. Why would Pharoah's army chase them into the Sinai? It makes more sense that they were trapped on the west arm of the Red Sea rather than the East arm, since the area would still be in Egypt not Midian.
Please cite an ancient map showing the Sinai Peninsula as the land of Midian.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2010 1:05 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 09-11-2010 9:27 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 474 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 2:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 70 of 657 (580784)
09-11-2010 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by PaulK
09-11-2010 3:13 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:
The Bible. Exodus 18:27 tells us that Jethro returned to "his own land" after the meeting. If his own land is Midian then surely the meeting is not in Midian.
LOL. The logical implication is that Jethro's own land was referring to the land in Midian which was belonged to him, i.e. the part of Midian where he lived.
PaulK writes:
Exodus 14 says no such thing. Indeed it seems clear that the Egyptians are simply moving faster than the Israelites, implying clear ground for the chariots. According to Exodus 14:25 God even intervenes to slow the chariots down, suggesting that the chariots would have caught the Israelites if there was no interference.
I'll have to check out Numbers etc. The Israelites left before the Egyptians decided to persue. To my knowledge, that timeframe is not specified. There would have been areas, especially in the wadi canyon/valley area where going would have been slower for wheeled vehicles than for people on animals and afoot. Also along the journey there were likely wheel problems and other things to slow up the army some.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2010 3:13 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2010 4:50 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 71 of 657 (580789)
09-11-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 7:58 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buz writes:
Please cite an ancient map showing the Sinai Peninsula as the land of Midian.
Your OWN cite shows that the Midianites ruled both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba and much of the Sinai.
Your own cite refutes you Buz.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 7:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 4:39 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 72 of 657 (580837)
09-11-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
09-11-2010 9:27 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Jar writes:
Your OWN cite shows that the Midianites ruled both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba and much of the Sinai.
I hadn't noticed this, Jar. Thanks for the heads up on it. You've earned a message five-er from me for that.
After doing some reading on this, it appears that historically that secular companies like National Geographics Midian maps whow it in Northwest Saudi Arabia, exclusively. Encyclopedia Britannica has it also exclusively in Saudi Arabia bordering the Gulf of Aqaba.
Wiki has it also in Saudi Arabia but says Seventh Day Adventist maps show it in the Sinai Peninsula as well. One site said that some Biblical maps show it in the Sinai Peninsula in order to accomodate the traditional thought that Mt Sinai is in the peninsula.
At any rate, the Sinai Peninsula location is debatable.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 09-11-2010 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-11-2010 6:22 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 73 of 657 (580838)
09-11-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 8:11 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
LOL. The logical implication is that Jethro's own land was referring to the land in Midian which was belonged to him, i.e. the part of Midian where he lived.
Not really. We don't even know if there was a particular part that Jethro could claim as his own. Herders in that time and place tended to be nomadic. And as has been pointed out you,r own source indicates that the borders of Midian were different then - and you still have not produced one piece of evidence that Mt. Sinai itself was in Midian.
quote:
I'll have to check out Numbers etc. The Israelites left before the Egyptians decided to persue. To my knowledge, that timeframe is not specified. There would have been areas, especially in the wadi canyon/valley area where going would have been slower for wheeled vehicles than for people on animals and afoot. Also along the journey there were likely wheel problems and other things to slow up the army some.
There's no mention of any wadi or valley to cause delays. Delays on the way wouldn't matter, so that isn't significant at all. The fact is that there is no mention of the Israelites being trapped by the terrain, the Egyptians should have been faster and more mobile and there is some support from the text for the idea. And that is sufficient for the fear among the Israelites that is mentioned. (And given the disparity in numbers, and the benefit of rough terrain to the defenders I would suggest that even that fits with open flat country where the Egyptians could make most use of their chariots).
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 8:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 9:49 PM PaulK has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 74 of 657 (580853)
09-11-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 4:39 PM


Was there even a Mount Sinai?
Buz writes:
At any rate, the Sinai Peninsula location is debatable.
Actually, what is debatable is whether or not there ever was something called Mount Sinai. On the other hand, the mountains of Sinai makes a lot of sense and it would most definitely be those hills on the peninsula and not anything in what is today Saudi Arabia.
So, still waiting for any evidence that there ever was an Exodus or that the Gulf of Aqaba is in any way relevant.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 4:39 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 75 of 657 (580867)
09-11-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by PaulK
09-11-2010 4:50 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:
Not really. We don't even know if there was a particular part that Jethro could claim as his own. Herders in that time and place tended to be nomadic. And as has been pointed out you,r own source indicates that the borders of Midian were different then - and you still have not produced one piece of evidence that Mt. Sinai itself was in Midian.
According to Numbers 31:8 and 10 there were kings and citys in the land of Midian. There came a time when Moses warred against these kings and their cities by Jehovah's command.
This being the case, not all were nomadic shepherds. There were definable areas of the land.
LOL. Certainly, Paul, by now, I don't expect some of you members to acknowledge any cited evidence for anything ever supported by evidence relative to the Exodus.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain: Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. ........
10 And all their cities in the places wherein they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burnt with fire.
PaulK writes:
There's no mention of any wadi or valley to cause delays. Delays on the way wouldn't matter, so that isn't significant at all. The fact is that there is no mention of the Israelites being trapped by the terrain, the Egyptians should have been faster and more mobile and there is some support from the text for the idea. And that is sufficient for the fear among the Israelites that is mentioned. (And given the disparity in numbers, and the benefit of rough terrain to the defenders I would suggest that even that fits with open flat country where the Egyptians could make most use of their chariots).
In Exodus 14:1-4 Jehovah instructs Moses into a region where they will be entrapped by the wilderness and the sea, leaving no escape route.
Tell the sons of Israel to turn back and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you shall camp in front of Baal-zephon, opposite it, by the sea. "For Pharaoh will say of the sons of Israel, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.’ "Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." And they did so."
Exodus 14:1-4

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2010 4:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Coragyps, posted 09-11-2010 10:01 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 77 by jar, posted 09-11-2010 10:03 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2010 2:56 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 475 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 2:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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