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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 76 of 657 (580869)
09-11-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
by now, I don't expect some of you members to acknowledge any cited evidence for anything ever supported by evidence relative to the Exodus.
And we, Buz, don't expect you to provide any, either. Wyatt had none. His successors have none. Exodus and Numbers provide a morsel, on a par with the evidence The Two Towers provides for Middle Earth.
Give it a rest until you find something. Anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 9:49 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 77 of 657 (580871)
09-11-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 9:49 PM


The problem ain't wadis, it is god.
Buz, Exodus 14 just continues the pattern I mentioned earlier; the story teller creating crises just to keep the audience interested and providing shelter and food.
BUT, there is NOTHING in it that suggests there are geological features holding the Israelites up. In fact it totally refutes the idea that it was geography slowing them down, rather it is God that steps in and tells them to stop and wait for Pharaoh.
quote:
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' 4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. 9 The Egyptiansall Pharaoh's horses and chariots, horsemen and troopspursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.
It is yet more evidence that the story is a serial fiction designed to keep the story teller over an extended stay.
Edited by jar, : teh applin spallin
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 9:49 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 78 of 657 (580884)
09-12-2010 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
According to Numbers 31:8 and 10 there were kings and citys in the land of Midian. There came a time when Moses warred against these kings and their cities by Jehovah's command.
This being the case, not all were nomadic shepherds. There were definable areas of the land.
Which does not tell us that Jethro owned land. Now if you found something that said that Jethro was a resident of a city or owned land that would be different.
quote:
LOL. Certainly, Paul, by now, I don't expect some of you members to acknowledge any cited evidence for anything ever supported by evidence relative to the Exodus.
I'm glad that you don't expect us to lie for you. Thank you for acknowledging our honesty..
quote:
In Exodus 14:1-4 Jehovah instructs Moses into a region where they will be entrapped by the wilderness and the sea, leaving no escape route.
Try reading it more carefully. I have noticed the more significant phrases in bold.
Tell the sons of Israel to turn back and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you shall camp in front of Baal-zephon, opposite it, by the sea. "For Pharaoh will say of the sons of Israel, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.’ "Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." And they did so."
So the Israelites are to "turn back" and the Pharaoh is to assume that they "wander aimlessly" and from THAT conclude that "the wilderness has shut them in". This is not referring to the Israelites being trapped by the terrain. It indicates that they are believed to be lost and unable to navigate the wilderness. They were free to move forward - it is God's command that tells them to turn back. There is nothing that says that the terrain by Pi-hahiroth will trap the Israelites in any way.
So again, we see the fact that your "topography" comes not from the Bible but from the imagination of Ron Wyatt. If it came from the Bible don't you think that Wyatt and Moeller would have at least cited the relevant verses, instead of leaving you to scrabble around for support that isn't there ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 9:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2010 9:33 AM PaulK has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 79 of 657 (580899)
09-12-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by PaulK
09-12-2010 2:56 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:
So the Israelites are to "turn back" and the Pharaoh is to assume that they "wander aimlessly" and from THAT conclude that "the wilderness has shut them in". This is not referring to the Israelites being trapped by the terrain. It indicates that they are believed to be lost and unable to navigate the wilderness. They were free to move forward - it is God's command that tells them to turn back. There is nothing that says that the terrain by Pi-hahiroth will trap the Israelites in any way.
So again, we see the fact that your "topography" comes not from the Bible but from the imagination of Ron Wyatt. If it came from the Bible don't you think that Wyatt and Moeller would have at least cited the relevant verses, instead of leaving you to scrabble around for support that isn't there ?
To wander aimlessly does not entail entrapment. Likely Pharoah had some info as to the route they were taking from scouts who informed him that they changed course toward a rugged entrapment region, as Jehovah had instructed and as was the case.
They were likely headed North of the gulf to go around the gulf and Pharoah, knowing the topography of the G of Aqaba, knew they would likely end up at Nuweiba where they would be entrapped when they headed Southeast.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2010 2:56 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-12-2010 9:48 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2010 10:50 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-12-2010 12:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 657 (580901)
09-12-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
09-12-2010 9:33 AM


Let's go look at the Nuweiba beach...
Buz writes:
To wander aimlessly does not entail entrapment. Likely Pharoah had some info as to the route they were taking from scouts who informed him that they changed course toward a rugged entrapment region, as Jehovah had instructed and as was the case.
Buz, do you have any idea where the Nuweiba beach is or the terrain involved in getting there? There is this thing called Google Maps and guess what, you can actually look at them.

View Larger Map
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2010 9:33 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2010 9:08 PM jar has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 81 of 657 (580905)
09-12-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
09-12-2010 9:33 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
To wander aimlessly does not entail entrapment.
In itself, no. But if the Israelites were seeking to leave Egypt - and could not then it DOES suggest that they are "closed in".
quote:
Likely Pharoah had some info as to the route they were taking from scouts who informed him that they changed course toward a rugged entrapment region, as Jehovah had instructed and as was the case.
There is no mention of a "rugged entrapment region" in the Bible. In fact it seems clear that the idea that "the wilderness has closed them in" comes from the Israelites turning back instead of crossing the wilderness.
So we are left with the fact that your "topography" has no sound basis in the Bible which implies only that the actual terrain was suitable for chariots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2010 9:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 09-12-2010 10:57 AM PaulK has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 657 (580906)
09-12-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by PaulK
09-12-2010 10:50 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
So we are left with the fact that your "topography" has no sound basis in the Bible which implies only that the actual terrain was suitable for chariots.
Which also pretty much refutes the idea that they were at Nuweiba beach.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2010 10:50 AM PaulK has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 83 of 657 (580932)
09-12-2010 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
09-12-2010 9:33 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
Likely Pharoah had some info as to the route they were taking from scouts who informed him that they changed course toward a rugged entrapment region, as Jehovah had instructed and as was the case.
Yes, the text states pretty plainly that Pharoah knew where the Israelites were. It also states plainly that God's plan was for Pharoah to think they were trapped. It was all a ploy to draw Pharoah out so that his army could be destroyed. It's a classic military maneouver.
There's nothing in the text to suggest that the Israelites were very far from Goshen - i.e. it seems pretty unlikely that they would have travelled across the Sinai to Aqaba before Pharoah decided to pursue.
But your nitpicking about the route adds nothing to the topic anyway. An eroded rock and a pictograph, neither of which is unique, are not evidence that a large group of people passed through the area.
You seem to suffer from Indiana Jones Syndrome, just like Ron Wyatt did. You want to find the headline-grabbing artifacts like the "altar" but archaeology and history don't work like that. You need to think of evidence in more mundane terms, like fire pits and garbage dumps. There are no shortcuts, no single piece of evidence that will prove your pet hypothesis. You need a body of evidence, a vast number of tiny clues.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 84 of 657 (580941)
09-12-2010 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
09-12-2010 12:57 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Also, didn't the Israelites spend most of the purported 40 years in one spot? Kadesh Barnea? Thirty-eight years spent headquartered in one area would leave a lot of evidence like fire pits and garbage dumps.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 85 of 657 (580943)
09-12-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Asgara
09-12-2010 1:32 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Actually, if the Biblical Exodus myth were factual, it would be the largest city in the Middle East, something that would most certainly leave behind evidence. Even by the time of Jesus Jerusalem only had a population of about 80,000 maximum. According to the Biblical myth the Israelites numbered over ten times that number in men only, not including women, children, elderly and non-Israelites.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 86 of 657 (580998)
09-12-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
09-12-2010 9:48 AM


Re: Let's go look at the Nuweiba beach...
Jar writes:
Buz, do you have any idea where the Nuweiba beach is or the terrain involved in getting there? There is this thing called Google Maps and guess what, you can actually look at them.
LOL. This is 2010 AD when modern roadbuilding machines can built nearly anywhere. How about an ancient map of Moses era showing this coaatal highway?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-12-2010 9:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 09-12-2010 9:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 657 (580999)
09-12-2010 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
09-12-2010 9:08 PM


Re: Let's go look at the Nuweiba beach...
You totally miss the point Buz.
Yes, look at the terrain.
The Nuweiba beach is not even close to what is described in the story.
Edited by jar, : cant spall teh

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2010 9:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 657 (581068)
09-13-2010 11:24 AM


More on the history of the region.
When thinking about the likelihood of the Exodus, it's a good idea to also think about the history of the region. For example, the region around the Gulf of Aqaba and the city that today is called Eilat in Israel has been important since at least the 7th. Millennium BC. It was a major shipping port for essentials like copper (perhaps the oldest copper mine yet known) and there are extensive tombs and structures still remaining. It was also a transfer point for trade in the incense products of Myrrh and Frankincense from Yemen and Ethiopia, Salt from the Dead Sea and linens and cedar from Biblos. The area was critical to Egypt, the Phoenicians, as well as the Midians, Edomites, the Rephidim who were the indigenous peoples of the Sinai {it's worth noting that the supposed 'Rock of Horab' is located in Rephidim} and the people of what today is Yemen and Ethiopia.
The Gulf of Aqaba, far from being a wasteland, was a heavily traveled commerce highway, far deeper than the Gulf of Sinai and relatively narrow, sheltered.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 09-13-2010 11:26 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 89 of 657 (581142)
09-13-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
09-13-2010 11:24 AM


Re: Wrong Region: Strawman.
LOL. Eiliat is way up at the commercial end of the gulf. Nuweiba is a long ways down and no evidence of your alleged busy highway down the coast from Eiliat. Jar, you keep on bringing on these strawmen, having no bearing on the area in question.
None of this diminishes the evidence cited a whit. The Israelites were entrapped in the wilderness area of the gulf, the only escape being the wadi valley, through which they had gone.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 09-13-2010 11:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by frako, posted 09-14-2010 6:48 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 92 by jar, posted 09-14-2010 9:19 AM Buzsaw has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 90 of 657 (581155)
09-14-2010 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
09-08-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Time to return to this claim:
quote:
Not only that, but the topography described in the Biblical text only matches Nuweiba Beach, in that it had to have been big enough for a large number of people and that it had to be enclosed by mountains and accessable by a river/creek vally or wadi.
We have established that the Bible does NOT describe the topography of the crossing site at all. The only clearly relevant text implies clear level terrain.
All you have, is built on a dodgy interpretation of "the wilderness has closed them in", taking it to refer specifically to the Israelites choosing a camp site with no retreat. Unfortunately for you there is nothing in the Bible that remotely verifies this interpretation - something that would be very easy to do if it was the intended meaning - even saying "the mountains have closed them in" would be enough. The alternative reading, then, that it refers to the Israelites turning back instead of crossing the wilderness to escape from Egypt is clearly better. It makes better sense of the reference to the "wilderness', it makes better sense in the context of the Israelites turning back and does not raise awkward questions about the camp site being under serious threat from a much smaller force led by chariots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2010 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2010 8:45 AM PaulK has replied

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