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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 295 (579415)
09-04-2010 2:48 PM


So let's look and see what Genesis 1 actually says.
quote:
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The first day. The Heaven and the earth get created.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 11:29 AM jar has replied
 Message 283 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 12:50 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 295 (581381)
09-15-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 11:29 AM


capitals and multiple heavens
I'm sorry but there is NOTHING in the story to support that and in addition, guess what, Early Hebrew did not have cases, or even punctuation.
Edited by jar, : applin spallin and fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 11:29 AM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:25 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 295 (581392)
09-15-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Chronology
Huh?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:13 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:33 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 295 (581401)
09-15-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:25 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
You said:
Joseppi writes:
Heaven is not capitalized until the eighth verse.
The heaven and the earth were created in the beginning recorded in the first verse.
The heaven in that first verse is singular and there was no division into the other two heavens at that time.
Heaven in capitalized in verse eighth to inform the believer that God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there.
First, Hebrew did not have either case (upper and lower case) or punctuation so there was no distinction based on capitalization.
Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
Here is Genesis 1:
quote:
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
There is nothing in there to support your assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:25 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 190 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:17 PM jar has replied
 Message 226 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 9:38 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 295 (581403)
09-15-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:33 PM


Re: Chronology
Huh?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:33 PM Joseppi has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 189 of 295 (581409)
09-15-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:00 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
I don't believe the Hebrews had no way to express titles, names etc.
Your idea that if Hebrews didn't capitalize letters then no translated text should have them is ludicrous.
I never said that translated texts should not use capitals, I said that the Hebrews did not use case sensitive letters or punctuation.
You would have a better argument than, assuming I made something up, if you explained why it is indeed capitalized. And further, why you assume it means nothing.
I didn't expect you to grasp the understanding since you may not be well read with respect to the Bible. And, you seem to have great difficulty with a plethora of simple English usage.
Anyway, the Hebrew this or that argument carries no weight with me, because I think it is certain that you have no understanding of Hebrew comparable to any of the translators of the Bible I read.
Please look and you will see that I included the full text of Genesis 1. There is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.


בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:00 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:41 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 295 (581412)
09-15-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:17 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Good grief. We are talking about Genesis 1 & 2.
I repeat, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to your assertion that "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there. "

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:17 PM Joseppi has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 194 of 295 (581415)
09-15-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:29 PM


But none of that is in Genesis 1.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:29 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:51 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 197 of 295 (581421)
09-15-2010 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:41 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
And you are making up the notion that I'm making things up.
Yes, you have said that, but I must once again ask you to show where in Genesis 1 there is anything related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there."
If it is not in Genesis 1 then you are just making stuff up.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:41 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 2:08 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 295 (581431)
09-15-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 2:08 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Again, what you are saying is irrelevant to the question.
Where in Genesis 1 there is anything related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there."
Hell, where is a throne even mentioned in Genesis 1? There is not even anything in Genesis 1 about God ruling.
If they are NOT in the text, then you are just making stuff up.
It really is that simple.
One of the interesting things about the God found in Genesis 1 is that there is NO interaction with what is created. The God found in Genesis 1 is aloof, competent, overarching, creating by an act of will alone but separate, not personal, not interacting with its creation.
This is yet another difference between the fable found in Genesis 1 and the fable found in Genesis 2&3. The God found in the Genesis 2&3 fable is entirely different than the one depicted in Genesis 1. The Genesis 2&3 God is very human, personal, fumbling, often unsure, lying and even fearful but hands on, a tinkerer, learning by doing and actively involved with its creation.
Those differences should be a clue that the purpose of the two fables is NOT creation itself but rather trying to describe how different people at different times viewed their relationships with the world around them, each other and the god they worshiped.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 2:08 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 2:40 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 208 of 295 (581440)
09-15-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 2:40 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
That's fine except I was not talking about anything that is NOT in the text. If you return just ask and I will be happy to explain exactly where in the text each thing I mention can be found.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 2:40 PM Joseppi has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 295 (581478)
09-15-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 7:11 PM


Re: What version is the correct
Of note of course, my blowing of this pathetic Original Post out of the water has been completely ignored.
I must have missed your post where you did that. Can you provide us a link?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 7:11 PM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 7:25 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 218 of 295 (581485)
09-15-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 7:25 PM


Re: What version is the correct
Well, I read both of those and could not find where you addressed the issues raised, just that you denied that the inconsistencies really existed.
However, even if you assumptions were true (and I see no reason to think they are) it still does not address the fact that both the order as presented in the Genesis 1 fable and in the Genesis 2 fable are factually wrong.
The Earth is not created before the sun.
The first plants were not seed bearing.
Life on land did NOT come before life in the sea.
The fact is that neither the newer fable found in Genesis 1 nor the older fables combined into Genesis 2&3 are factually correct. They are not even theologically consistent, the God's are different, the one described in Genesis 2&3 is very human, hands on, learning by doing, unsure, fearful, creating by hand and magic, but personal, directly involved in its creation. The god described in Genesis 1 though is aloof, separate, creating by act of will alone, sure and unhesitating but impersonal and not interacting with its creations.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 7:25 PM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 7:58 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 221 of 295 (581490)
09-15-2010 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 7:58 PM


Re: What version is the correct
I can only repeat the parts you did not address.
However, even if you assumptions were true (and I see no reason to think they are) it still does not address the fact that both the order as presented in the Genesis 1 fable and in the Genesis 2 fable are factually wrong.
The Earth is not created before the sun.
The first plants were not seed bearing.
Life on land did NOT come before life in the sea.
The fact is that neither the newer fable found in Genesis 1 nor the older fables combined into Genesis 2&3 are factually correct. They are not even theologically consistent, the God's are different, the one described in Genesis 2&3 is very human, hands on, learning by doing, unsure, fearful, creating by hand and magic, but personal, directly involved in its creation. The god described in Genesis 1 though is aloof, separate, creating by act of will alone, sure and unhesitating but impersonal and not interacting with its creations.
Factually incorrect stories.
Different gods.
Different methods.
Different order.
This is in a Science forum dealing with Biblical accuracy.
Edited by jar, : Hit key too soon.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 7:58 PM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-15-2010 9:01 PM jar has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 295 (581511)
09-15-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 9:38 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
What evidences is in the bible precisely?
Please clarify what you mean by that if you don't mind. I'm not tracking where your coming from.
And I'm not sure what you are asking.
The message you replied to was in response to a claim that something in Genesis 1 implied a couple heavens with one meant to be where God was going to put his throne and live. I was simply asking where that could be found in Genesis 1.
What evidence is in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 is a snap shot of how different people in different cultures and eras viewed their world. It is the story of authors and cultures and editors and redactors and committees of Canon.
The big question for me, and a major step in understanding the Bible, came from questioning what many different committees of Canon decided to include two stories that touch, even indirectly, on creation even though they are filled with conflicting and mutually exclusive tales.
Understanding developed over many years, decades even.
Why did they include two stories?
Why did they place the younger, newer tale before the older tale?
Why didn't they merge the tales together like they did with the at least two, more likely three, Flood myths?
Why didn't they edit the material to eliminate the conflicts, the discrepancies, fix up the mistakes?
Why did the redactors who were certainly capable of reading include not only two different, mutually exclusive stories, but went a step further and placed the younger story first is a good one? Why did they include two stories of Creation that exclude each other, if one is true the other is false?
That should be one of the first clues for readers.
They include both stories because creation is not really what the stories are about. Creation is simply a plot device, a tool to use to talk about what was really important to the story tellers.
They put the younger story first because it served as a introduction, a wide angle view from afar, that shows a Transcendent God that oversees everything. That beginning, that opening shot, let the authors talk about what was really important, that GOD is the source of all, and that we should take one day off out of seven. But that God was also impersonal, separate, not interacting with its creation.
They then combined several of the older tales from a time when folk saw God as just a super human. Again, creation is but a plot device to allow them to present a different view of god, a kindler gentler god, one with many human limitations and weaknesses, one that is somewhat fumbling and unsure, fearful and limited, but also intimate, solid, chatty, companionable.
The plot devices in the rest of the story allowed the authors to get to other material that they thought important, why man had to work as a farmer instead of simply foraging like other animals, why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems harder and more painful for humans. It is a "Just So" story that helped explain man's relationship with man, that women were subject to man, that we were a social morality based society as opposed to an amoral society like the other animals.
And that seems to be the point of this thread.
Why did the redactors include two obviously mutually exclusive and contradictory creation myths?
I believe they had good reason, the stories let them discuss the other subjects that they felt important.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 9:38 PM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 09-15-2010 10:28 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

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