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Author Topic:   ICR Sues Texas
Admin
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Message 511 of 549 (582595)
09-22-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:00 AM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Dawn Bertot writes:
This in no way however is a slap in the face to the design argument, which of course supports itself
If anywhere in this thread someone suggested that the denial of accreditation to ICR's master's program constituted a rejection of the design argument as described by you, then they were mistaken. Please do not mention your design arguments in this thread any more. They are off-topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 512 of 549 (582596)
09-22-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:16 AM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Dawn Bertot's ideas are not the topic of this thread. Dawn should work on his topic proposal if he wants to discuss these ideas. Off-topic content hidden. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Add hide.

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Granny Magda
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Member Rating: 4.0


Message 513 of 549 (582630)
09-22-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:00 AM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Hi DB,
I agree that the introduction of the miraculous or a specific religion into church and state matters is probably not going to fly. They should not expect, nor should they be disappointed when they are rejected
Agreed. In fact, I don't suppose that they ever expected to succeed.
To make it clear, I think ICR is on the right track, they simply need a little fine tuning. The tuning would simply be that they present creation from the standpoint of design exclusively.
That won't work either. The Dover vs. Kitzmiller ruling makes it clear that, as far as US law is concerned, ID is simply another form of creationism. That means that the courts will deem an ID based course to be just as religious as an explicitly creationist one.
You are free to disagree with that all you want (on another thread) but from a pragmatic point of view, emphasising design won't help ICR's case.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

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Taq
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(1)
Message 514 of 549 (582640)
09-22-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Granny Magda
09-22-2010 12:27 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
The Dover vs. Kitzmiller ruling makes it clear that, as far as US law is concerned, ID is simply another form of creationism.
To be fair, the ruling focused on the book "Of Pandas and People" which the science teachers were forced to reference during science class. ID as presented was found to be religious in nature, and did not pass the Lemon test.
However, I don't think any of us would be surprised if the Dover case did weigh in to the decision made by the board when they denied ICR accreditation.
You are free to disagree with that all you want (on another thread) but from a pragmatic point of view, emphasising design won't help ICR's case.
A pragmatic view is exactly what we should be using here. What type of career in the sciences will a graduate from the PhD program at ICR have? Will they be equipped to do cutting edge research in the biological sciences? I think the answer is no, and emphatically no. The goal of this PhD program was not producing scientists who go on to do scientific research. They wanted to produce preachers who were knowledgable of all the creationist, anti-evolution canards that we have seen for the last 50 years. That's it. They wanted to teach apologetics, not science.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 515 of 549 (582649)
09-22-2010 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:00 AM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
To make it clear, I think ICR is on the right track, they simply need a little fine tuning. The tuning would simply be that they present creation from the standpoint of design exclusively. I agree that the introduction of the miraculous or a specific religion into church and state matters is probably not going to fly.
It is true that the more they pretend not to be creationists, the better they will be able to pretend that they're doing science.
The trouble is that they are creationists. The whole point of the ICR is to serve as a creationist propaganda front. The only reason anyone would want to do their "science education" course in the first place is to learn how to make children into creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-22-2010 9:00 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 516 of 549 (582652)
09-22-2010 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Granny Magda
09-22-2010 12:27 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
If I could clarify what I believe to be on topic...
Discussion of how ICR might modify their curriculum to improve their chances of gaining accreditation in Texas is on topic.
Dawn's ideas that involves "rules of evidence" and that asserts that things are "ordered of themselves" and so forth are all off-topic. Dawn is working on a topic proposal to discuss these ideas.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 517 of 549 (582692)
09-22-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Granny Magda
09-22-2010 12:27 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
won't work either. The Dover vs. Kitzmiller ruling makes it clear that, as far as US law is concerned, ID is simply another form of creationism. That means that the courts will deem an ID based course to be just as religious as an explicitly creationist one.
You are free to disagree with that all you want (on another thread) but from a pragmatic point of view, emphasising design won't help ICR's case.
Just a quick note not to be off topic
That is why the right type and form of debater is necessary in those situations. Most of the time it is individuals that cannot represent the case as it should be represented. Either the people presenting the case are simplistic and limited in thier abilities or the people recieving the information are to simplistic and do not understand what is being presented
The right type of debater is necessary to help them. I am of that type and have did it many times
In either case we have been instructed not to discuss it pass the points I have made above. ill try and take it to another thread and develope it with percy
Hope to see you there
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 518 of 549 (582695)
09-22-2010 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:30 PM


What we need is some Vuja de
Maybe your next post can be some vuja de. It would really be nice to some something new.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 519 of 549 (582696)
09-22-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Dr Adequate
09-22-2010 1:47 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
The trouble is that they are creationists. The whole point of the ICR is to serve as a creationist propaganda front. The only reason anyone would want to do their "science education" course in the first place is to learn how to make children into creationists.
Another point one might explore is what are the particular fields and expertise of the people making these decisions, in the negative int he first place. Are they already predisposed to decision against ICR to begin with. Do we have a balanced and fair panel, dispersing judgements in the first place. I am am not saying they are not, but it would be interesting to see what thier fields and person views are to begin with
Dawn Bertot

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 09-22-2010 10:03 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 520 of 549 (582697)
09-22-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Are they already predisposed to decision against ICR to begin with. Do we have a balanced and fair panel, dispersing judgements in the first place.
Hopefully they are predisposed to decide against the utter dishonesty like what was presented by ICR. That is their job. ID and Creationism can never be science simply because they begin with a conclusion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-22-2010 9:49 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-22-2010 9:59 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 521 of 549 (582700)
09-22-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by jar
09-22-2010 9:54 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Hopefully they are predisposed to decide against the utter dishonesty like what was presented by ICR. That is their job. ID and Creationism can never be science simply because they begin with a conclusion.
So when you say "hopefully", that is a good indication that you have no idea about thier fields, perspectives and opinions concerning these matters. it would be interesting to see IF ANYONE COULD PRESENT IT.
Design or creationism suffers no defeat, simply because these people choose otherwise
Dawn Bertot

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 522 of 549 (582701)
09-22-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
Another point one might explore is what are the particular fields and expertise of the people making these decisions,
Are you asking about the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board?
Have you heard of google?
Home - THECB

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 523 of 549 (582702)
09-22-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by Dawn Bertot
09-22-2010 9:59 PM


The duty of an accreditation committee
So when you say "hopefully", that is a good indication that you have no idea about thier fields, perspectives and opinions concerning these matters. it would be interesting to see IF ANYONE COULD PRESENT IT.
I only need to know what their duty is and their duty was to determine if the curriculum is adequate to justify accreditation.
Design or creationism suffers no defeat, simply because these people choose otherwise
The issue was whether or not the program met the minimum standards for accreditation. The Committee did their job.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 521 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-22-2010 9:59 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 524 of 549 (582716)
09-23-2010 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by Theodoric
09-22-2010 10:03 PM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
The Institute for Creation Research Brings a Flawed Lawsuit
Against the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board
Texas Citizens for Science Claims ICR Has No Valid Legal Justification for Its Litigation
A Report and Analysis by
Steven Schafersman, Ph.D.
President, Texas Citizens for Science
2009 April 20
Updated: 2009 December 3
Updated: 2010 June 22
Updated: 2010 September 1
The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) filed a lawsuit against the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board (THECB) on Tuesday, 2009 April 16. The lawsuit names as defendants the eight members of the THECB in both their official and individual capacities, thus making it expensive for each member. No doubt all will be represented by the same team of attorneys, but each will have to consider their individual financial liability, which will be unappealing and discouraging to them. This will intimidate them to settle with terms favorable to ICR. ICR could have just sued the THECB as an institution, but that would not be mean-spirited and intimidating enough for the litigious ICR.
In addition, probably all of the appointed THECB members are social and religious conservatives appointed by Governor Rick Perry who presumably would want ICR to have its Masters Degree in Science Education, and would certainly have voted in favor of ICR if Dr. Paredes had originally recommended that. The THECB members correctly decided, however, that they must support Commissioner Paredes' recommendation, which he reached after carefully evaluating ICR's application using a team of professional scientists and science education professors who had the actual expertise to perform the evaluation. (The first evaluation team had no one on it who was competent to professionally evaluate ICR.)
Theo writes
Are you asking about the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board?
Yep, I read the whole thing and as I suspected simplicity of mind, beyond belief, on both sides.
Nothing of the actual truth was presented in any of this on either side
THEN AMAZINGLY, in a real OBJECTIVE move, the BOARDs, (which I examined each members credentials) actual decisions and decision making processes and functions are disregarded and they go straight to a team of "PROFESSIONAL SCIENTIST". Hmmmmmm?
No examination of the real evidence or objectivity by the so-called "professional scientists", They simply hijacked the boards decisions and became the board themselves
Hmmmmmm?
Quote
"The THECB members correctly decided, however, that they must support Commissioner Paredes' recommendation, which he reached after carefully evaluating ICR's application using a team of professional scientists and science education professors who had the actual expertise to perform the evaluation. (The first evaluation team had no one on it who was competent to professionally evaluate ICR.)
Unfortunate. Professional scientist and not professional thinkers
I wonder what the first evaluation team IS PROFESSIONALLY COMPOTENT TO EVLAUATE? IF THEY COULDNT DO THAT, CAN THEY DO ANYTHING ELSE COMPOTENTLY?
It would only take me 20 minutes to convince the THECB otherwise
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 526 by Nij, posted 09-23-2010 7:09 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
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 Message 541 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-23-2010 5:28 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 525 of 549 (582717)
09-23-2010 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Dawn Bertot
09-23-2010 2:33 AM


Re: Deja Vu - The feeling this topic's been reopened before
It would only take me 20 minutes to convince the THECB otherwise
With all due respect (which I normally state is not intended in the Woody Allen sense, but in your case I will make an exception), I have seen your BS posted here. Repeatedly. There was an expression in college: "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bullshit."
Dawn, all I have ever seen you post here has been pure bullshit. Do you want to present a case for the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board? Do so! Right here and now!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-23-2010 2:33 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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