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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 46 of 423 (585754)
10-09-2010 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
10-09-2010 12:32 PM


Re: Valueless $$
Phat writes:
I hear that the dollar is depreciating versus other currencies...
what would happen if the dollar became essentially worthless?
a dollars worth of anything would be essentially microcosmic
1. The $$ charts vs other currencies vary ziggey and zaggy, depending on monetary policies of those currencies at given periods. However, aggretatly, all currencies, being fiat/arbratrary globally are inflating, simply because they are essentially digital entries and/or paper.
Commodities such as gold, silver, platinum, copper and lead, etc have countered the charts for global currencies, especially the $$.
2. To answer your question as to where the $$ could go, all you need do is to see what happened to unbacked fiat currencies historically. China and Germany are two prime examples. The old antique woven sewing baskets were decorated with worthless brass Chinese coins with square cutouts in the middle. These decorative coins were sewn on the top of these baskets with Peking blown glass beads. The coins were used because of the unbacked Chinese currency of the era.
Historical examples of hyperinflation in Europe I suggest a reading of the whole page from which the following exerpt was taken. When the amount of money printed exceedingly increases over the goods and services available, hyperinflation becomes inevitable. In Germany they were literally using fiat money as wall paper or sweeping it up in the streets.
YES THIS COULD HAPPEN TO THE AMERICAN $$ VIA THE CONTINUATION OF THE MONETARY POLICIES OF THE FEDS, BEING ALARMINGLY ESCALATED BY THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION!
By late 1923, the Weimar Republic of Germany was issuing two-trillion Mark banknotes and postage stamps with a face value of fifty billion Mark. The highest value banknote issued by the Weimar government's Reichsbank had a face value of 100 trillion Mark (100,000,000,000,000; 100 billion on the long scale).[10][11]. At the height of the inflation one U.S. dollar was worth 4 trillion German marks. One of the firms printing these notes submitted an invoice for the work to the Reichsbank for 32,776,899,763,734,490,417.05 (3.281019, or 33 quintillion) Marks.[12]
The largest denomination banknote ever officially issued for circulation was in 1946 by the Hungarian National Bank for the amount of 100 quintillion peng (100,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 1020; 100 trillion on the long scale). image (There was even a banknote worth 10 times more, i.e. 1021 peng, printed, but not issued image.) The banknotes however did not depict the numbers, "hundred million b.-peng" ("hundred million billion peng") and "one milliard b.-peng" were spelled out instead. This makes the 100,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwean dollar banknotes the notes with the greatest number of zeros shown.
The Post-WWII hyperinflation of Hungary held the record for the most extreme monthly inflation rate ever 41,900,000,000,000,000% (4.19 1016% or 41.9 quadrillion percent) for July, 1946, amounting to prices doubling every 13.5 hours. By comparison, recent figures (as of 14 November 2008) estimate Zimbabwe's annual inflation rate at 89.7 sextillion (1021) percent.[13], which corresponds to a monthly rate of 5473%, and a doubling time of about five days.
Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.
I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 10-09-2010 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2010 4:17 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 4:48 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 10-09-2010 5:59 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 57 by frako, posted 10-11-2010 6:50 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 423 (585760)
10-09-2010 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 3:48 PM


Re: Valueless $$
Current rate of inflation in the US is about .2%.
Why is that, Buz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 3:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 423 (585769)
10-09-2010 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 3:48 PM


Re: Valueless $$
Buz writes:
Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.
Buzz, if you ever get up the nerve to start a thread on your Biblical Prophecy nonsense we can address it, but I imagine that is about as likely as any Biblical Prophecy coming true in the first place.
That one in particular is one of your sillier examples.
But I imagine that Phat started this thread because he was listening to Christian Radio yet again. It seems that the folk selling vitamins and health foods and gold and prayer hankies know their demographics and so sell where they know the suckers are lined up.
Christian Radio, the Gold Mine for the Snake Oil Salesman.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 3:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:12 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 49 of 423 (585773)
10-09-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
10-09-2010 12:20 PM


Re: The Intrinsic value of gold
We cant simply have wealth created by human value alone. China would become the wealthiest country, and the fortunes of generations would lose value since the support behind them would crumble. Gold is a way to keep the value of antiquity safely in the hands that held it.
But the value of gold is itself a human value. I grant you that it currently has a few industrial uses, but certainly not enough to support its price. As with fiat currency, it could lose its value --- if, for example, everyone suddenly realized that they had no particular need for shiny rocks.
The survivalist obsession with gold is particularly ridiculous. If civilization collapses, will there be any great demand for a commodity which has purely ornamental value --- with which I cannot feed myself nor fashion tools nor keep myself warm nor defend my family? I think not.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 10-09-2010 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 50 of 423 (585774)
10-09-2010 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 3:48 PM


inflation
The $$ charts vs other currencies vary ziggey and zaggy, depending on monetary policies of those currencies at given periods. However, aggretatly, all currencies, being fiat/arbratrary globally are inflating, simply because they are essentially digital entries and/or paper.
They inflate because of investment. If you invest $100 today it might become $130 in ten years. So if you chose between the two, they would the same. Therefore, $100 today is the same as $130 is in ten years.
Exactly the same would happen with gold.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 3:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:20 PM Modulous has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 51 of 423 (585775)
10-09-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
10-09-2010 4:17 PM


Re: Valueless $$
crashfrog writes:
Current rate of inflation in the US is about .2%.
Why is that, Buz?
Off the top of my head, perhaps gubm't dooking the books for the elections etc, the decline in the prices of luxury items and the housing crash.
The realistic rate of inflation as understood by the monetarily astute is essentials commodities and the falling $$ index as shown on the charts. I like sardines, for example of essentials. In the past three years the price of my favorite brand has nearly doubled.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2010 4:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2010 6:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 52 of 423 (585776)
10-09-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
10-09-2010 4:48 PM


Re: Topic Related Prophecy
Jar, what good would another thread on prophecy do when you have no intention of ever admitting to any of the evidence such as I have aired right here relative to this topic? Reasoning with you is impossible when it comes to anything supportive to the Biblica recordl. You're too often a waste of time.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 4:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 6:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 59 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2010 9:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 423 (585779)
10-09-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Topic Related Prophecy
No problem Buz, I proposed one where you can try to support your position. Hoope to see you there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 423 (585780)
10-09-2010 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
10-09-2010 5:59 PM


Re: inflation
Modulous writes:
They inflate because of investment. If you invest $100 today it might become $130 in ten years. So if you chose between the two, they would the same. Therefore, $100 today is the same as $130 is in ten years.
I see it as apples and oranges. Historically gold has reflected the rate of $$ inflation. Before 1913 and the establishment of the Federal Reserve system the $$ and gold were relatively stable. After the silver coinage ended and the gold standard ended in the 1960s and 70s the inflation charts relative to gold and the $$ moved in opposite direction rapidly.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 10-09-2010 5:59 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 10-09-2010 8:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 423 (585782)
10-09-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Valueless $$
Off the top of my head, perhaps gubm't dooking the books for the elections etc,
No "cooking of the books." According to everyone - government, universities, think tanks, NGO's, everybody - inflation is under .2%.
Why is that, Buz?
In the past three years the price of my favorite brand has nearly doubled.
That's due to overfishing, Buz, not inflation. Sardines are more expensive because there's less of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2010 9:08 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 56 of 423 (585798)
10-09-2010 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 6:20 PM


Re: inflation
I see it as apples and oranges. Historically gold has reflected the rate of $$ inflation. Before 1913 and the establishment of the Federal Reserve system the $$ and gold were relatively stable. After the silver coinage ended and the gold standard ended in the 1960s and 70s the inflation charts relative to gold and the $$ moved in opposite direction rapidly.
That doesn't address the point that money doesn't inflate because of the medium it takes as you said, but because it can be invested and grown, which is a good thing.
Gold had an instability that people weren't aware of, but once discovered made it unstable. It turns out that that foreign investors can cause the financial meltdown of a country by selling their currency reserves for that country's gold en masse. Now this is known, any country that switches to it will face potential foreign investor panic (started by plain fear or actual maliciousness), leading to a death spiral.
It also requires a fantastically run central authority to manage it. If it isn't managed with absolute expertise, chaos ensues, as the Federal Reserve found out when they inherited responsibility for the world's gold standard after the Bank of England's coffers were depleted post war.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 57 of 423 (586107)
10-11-2010 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 3:48 PM


Re: Valueless $$
um what a bout deflation buz japan has that problem in 2009 they had a 2.2% deflation the oposite of inflation.
and if you think deflation is a good thing you would be wrong cause the wages paid by companies are higher than the prices that their products where sold. japan has been bateling deflation for 20 years evan giving 0% intrest credits (banks where still erning mney cause the money you paid back was worth more than the one you borrowed)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 3:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 423 (586430)
10-13-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
10-09-2010 6:30 PM


Ruff Explains Inflation Fundamentals
Crashfrog writes:
According to everyone - government, universities, think tanks, NGO's, everybody - inflation is under .2%.
Why is that, Buz?
Let Howard Ruff explain.
Ruff, who's been, for decades, predicting the ultimate demise of the $$ explains the difference between inflation of the $$ and the inflation of prices; the $$ supply inflating first, followed by the inflation of prices.
.............They are printing a lot of dollars, but inflation doesn’t seem to be taking off, though gold and silver are acting as though it is. But gold and silver are right, inflation is taking off.
First, let me define inflation. To the economist, inflation is not rising prices any more than wet sidewalks are rainstorms. Inflation is an increase in the supply of money. It should really be called dilution because it dilutes the value of existing dollars.
In fact, a more proper term would be monetary inflation. Monetary inflation is currently raging as the Federal Reserve is printing more and more money, and gold and silver are responding.
Price inflation is another matter indeed. Price inflation is the end result and trails monetary inflation. Monetary inflation is now rampant. Gold and silver, being smarter than you and me, are reflecting that by the increase in price and the big rallies we are seeing now. So inflation is here.
But what about price inflation? Price inflation has also already started. Look at the increase in commodity prices. How much longer do you think it will be before these higher wholesale costs filter down to the retail level?
For example, Agricultural Raw Materials are up 24%, The Mineral Index is up 25%, The Metals Price Index is up 26%, Coffee is up 45%, Barley is up 32%, Oranges are up 35%, Beef is up 23%, Pork is up 68%, Salmon is up 30%, Sugar is up 24%, Wool is up 30%, Cotton is up 40%, Palm oil is up 26%, Hides is up 25%, Rubber is up 62%, Iron Ore up 103%. Those are prices at the wholesale level. ..............
Monetary inflation is here. Price inflation is coming. Commodity price inflation is also here. ............

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2010 6:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Panda, posted 10-13-2010 10:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 10-13-2010 12:20 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 2:36 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 10-14-2010 5:29 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 423 (586438)
10-13-2010 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
10-09-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Topic Related Prophecy
Buzsaw writes:
Jar, what good would another thread on prophecy do when you have no intention of ever admitting to any of the evidence such as I have aired right here relative to this topic? Reasoning with you is impossible when it comes to anything supportive to the Biblica record.
How often does anybody change their minds here? Getting admissions is not a reason for participating in an online debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2010 6:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 60 of 423 (586442)
10-13-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
10-13-2010 9:08 AM


Re: Ruff Explains Inflation Fundamentals
Buzsaw writes:
Ruff, who's been, for decades, predicting the ultimate demise of the $$
And no doubt he will continue to predict the demise of the dollar for decades more. (Predictions without a timeline are stupid.)
quote:
"inflation is not rising prices"
"Inflation is an increase in the supply of money"
"a more proper term would be monetary inflation."
"Price inflation is another matter indeed"
My BS alarm is going wild...
...and it appears that Ruff is also selling a survivalist agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2010 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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