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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Modulous
Member
Posts: 6274
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 61 of 90 (586041)
10-10-2010 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:46 PM


Re: Mark
Well I was comparing them to the 1425 dollars I paid for my first pickup truck that a comparable truck today costs 30,000 of them.

Well thankfully, those people that invested that 1425 dollars back then into bonds and stocks and other assets could have grown that 1425 into more than 30,000.

Which of these cover,

A mark in your hand or forehead? What is this mark?

A name in your hand or forehead? What is this name?

Or a number in your hand or forehead? This is the number 666.

The fact that these things are required to trade would at least come under

quote:
...distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:30 PM Modulous has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 62 of 90 (586042)
10-10-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
10-10-2010 8:33 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Too funny and yet another example of you trying to misdirect the audience attention while you palm the pea. Did you ever read the Bible or even the OP?

Sure I read the Bible and before I started posting in this thread I checked the Greek text and it does not have "which is " in it. It has the Greek word ἤ which means either, or. You shouldn't always trust the NIV perversion.

So the mark is one thing.

The name is another.

The number is 666.

jar writes:

It is NOT a monetary system.

Call it anything you want to call it. You won't be able to buy or sell anything without it. In fact you will probably be shot when you can not produce one of the three in your hand or forehead.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 24593
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 63 of 90 (586044)
10-10-2010 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
10-10-2010 9:02 PM


ICANT is still digging them attractive rabbit holes.
ICANT writes:

Call it anything you want to call it. You won't be able to buy or sell anything without it. In fact you will probably be shot when you can not produce one of the three in your hand or forehead.

LOL. I'm not gonna much worry about it since Revelation was talking about stuff from almost 2000 years ago.

BUT the point is, the assertion quoted in the OP is still refuted, the MARK is NOT a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:02 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 64 of 90 (586046)
10-10-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Modulous
10-10-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

The fact that these things are required to trade would at least come under

quote:
...distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services

One of the three is required to live must less buy or sell.

Now let me muse a little.

I go to the friendly grocery store and gather some groceries in the cart and go to the register. The lady tallies my total and I writer her a check. She asks me for my identification with a picture on it I produce my drivers license and she processes the check.

The check is a form of currency in the US.

But if I don't produce identification with a picture on it she don't process the check and I don't get the goods.

My producing identification is a part of the monetary process.

The mark, name, or number is identifiation which makes it a part of the transaction.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:57 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Modulous, posted 10-11-2010 12:29 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 24593
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 65 of 90 (586048)
10-10-2010 9:51 PM


More on the likely reality of Revelation
As I pointed out in Message 24 above, the author of Revelation is very likely talking about the Roman Empire as it existed at that time.

Under Tiberius, the Jews were relatively protected, the area was quasi independent under Herod and they were seen as a Protected Class. They were allowed their customs and prerogatives.

Tiberius was followed by the short reign of Caligula and while we cannot be sure of some of the tales told about him, the fact is that after less than a four year reign he was assassinated.

The next emperor was Claudius, and this is where it's likely the author of John draws his first beast. Claudius conquers most of the areas around the northern boundaries of the Med removing local rule and making them part of the Empire instead of allied States. While he reaffirmed Jewish rights throughout the Empire, he Conquered Judaea and removed its quasi independent status.

Claudius was followed by Nero who is likely the Emperor in power at the time Revelation is written. Nero is the Emperor in power at the beginning of the first Jewish War, the Great Revolt.

Nero is followed by a period of great unrest when emperor after emperor is overthrown, four emperors in just over one year.

It was a period when it was easy to imagine the end of the world, that the END TIMES were upon them.

And so the author of Revelation begins...

quote:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:27 PM jar has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 66 of 90 (586053)
10-10-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
10-10-2010 8:55 PM


Re: Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
Hi jar,

jar writes:

it is the name of the Beast.

I know the number of the Beast is 666.

I know the name of the Beast is the name of the Beast.

What I don't know is what that name is.

Also I don't know what the mark is mentioned in:

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

This verse does not say anything about buying or selling. It does not say what that mark is. Nowhere in the text does it say what this mark is.

In Message 63 you said:

jar writes:

LOL. I'm not gonna much worry about it since Revelation was talking about stuff from almost 2000 years ago.

You don't believe the Bible so why would you worry about it?

jar writes:

BUT the point is, the assertion quoted in the OP is still refuted, the MARK is NOT a monetary system.

Once you tell me what the mark is mentioned in Revelation 13:16 we can detrmine whether you have refuted the assertion quoted in the OP.

You can't refute an unknown.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:15 PM ICANT has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 24593
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 67 of 90 (586055)
10-10-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
10-10-2010 10:04 PM


Re: Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
Of course I can. Don't be silly. The assertions was

buz writes:

Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.

I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

There is NOTHING in the passage he mentions about any imagined Global Monetary system or Christian being forbidden to get the Mark or about all global currencies failing.

One, Two, Three strikes your out...

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


Buz assertion is refuted. The MARK being a Monetary system is refuted.

Revelation is over, done, talking about long, long ago. Your attempts at misdirecting the audience attention have failed yet again, just like almost all Biblical Prophecy.

And of course I believe the Bible, I just don't believe nonsense interpretations and misrepresentation of what is said in the Bible.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:04 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:31 PM jar has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 68 of 90 (586057)
10-10-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
10-10-2010 9:51 PM


Re: More on the likely reality of Revelation
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Claudius was followed by Nero who is likely the Emperor in power at the time Revelation is written. Nero is the Emperor in power at the beginning of the first Jewish War, the Great Revolt.

Nero died in 68 AD. Source

The book of Revelation was written in 95 AD. Source

Scholars are not united on this date.

The scholars are not really united on this matter, and in the course of certain theological views the late date is preferred today by the majority. The interpretations based on the acceptance of the late date as correct usually place the events recorded in the book of Revelation in the still future and thus they consider the prophecies in Revelation as unfulfilled. Rather important for the acceptance of the late date (approx. 96 AD) is a quote from a writing of the church father Irenaeus where he mentions John in the context of the persecutions of Christians by Caesar Domitian. Based on this source, the writing of Revelation is then placed in the time of Domitian because of the mention that John was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God.
Source

Irenaeus puts John in the days of Caesar Domitian which requires the later date.

This date is after the events you are talking about so they could not have been the prophesies in Revelation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:32 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 69 of 90 (586059)
10-10-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
10-10-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Buz assertion is refuted. The MARK being a Monetary system is refuted.

Then tell me what the mark in Revelation 13:16 is then.

You can't refute an unknown.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 70 of 90 (586060)
10-10-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nimrod
10-10-2010 8:38 PM


Re: More examples below. (or above)
Nimrod writes:

Just like Buz using a Revelation thread to claim that the Bible talks about Islamic persecution of Christians as prophecy when Jews seem to be singled out as these "end-times" meanies to Christians (how can one escape this conclusion when Buz places Revelation as describing end-times events?).

"Off-topic", Im sure will be the responce if I get any at all.

Nimrod, I'm not off topic. I've been into the prophecies for 60 plus years since a teenager back when Israel became a nation as prophecied. Perhaps sometime you will understand that in order to figure out any given Biblical prophecy study entails all corroborating prophecies related to what is being studied. Scripture interprets scripture.

By isolating any prophetic book of the Biblical prophecies you will never come to the correct understanding. That's why novices like Jar, you and some others don't get it right. You're wading in the shallows when you need to be swimming in the deep to engage in prophecy debates.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 8:38 PM Nimrod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 10:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 77 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2010 2:12 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24593
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 71 of 90 (586061)
10-10-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
10-10-2010 10:27 PM


Re: More on the likely reality of Revelation
Only if you accept the late date or that the prophecies were not for the immediate period. Even if the later date is accepted everything in Revelation is still almost 2000 years in the past.

In case you missed it...

quote:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Remember an even more likely explanation is that Revelation is just all failed prophecy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:27 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 10-11-2010 9:57 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24593
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 72 of 90 (586062)
10-10-2010 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
10-10-2010 10:31 PM


Re: Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
ICANT writes:

Then tell me what the mark in Revelation 13:16 is then.

You can't refute an unknown.

Of course I can, even without knowing anything more than that it is supposed to be the name of the Beast.

It is NOT a monetary system.

You will not get far with silly assertions and con games. You can't palm the pea.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:31 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 1288 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 73 of 90 (586067)
10-10-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 10:31 PM


Re: More examples below. (or above)
quote:

Buz
I've been into the prophecies for 60 plus years since a teenager back when Israel became a nation as prophecied. Perhaps sometime you will understand that in order to figure out any given Biblical prophecy study entails all corroborating prophecies related to what is being studied. Scripture interprets scripture.

By isolating any prophetic book of the Biblical prophecies you will never come to the correct understanding. That's why novices like Jar, you and some others don't get it right. You're wading in the shallows when you need to be swimming in the deep to engage in prophecy debates.


So we need to conflate how many different parts of the Bible to form a complete picture of an end-times war?

Seems to me like you want a conflagration of scripture since you ignore so much of it.It gets really bad when you have to ignore basic history in addition to many current world trends that contradict your prophetic scenarios.

So how do you explain the fact that Jews are the bad guys in Revelation? Is it prophecy or not? What other parts/books of scripture do you intend to skillfully merge in with revelation to explain the harsh end-times language that states Jews are the main persecutors of Christians?

I cant wait to see the Buz "melting pot" job on scripture. It will be a real bible bonfire.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 10:31 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 6274
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 74 of 90 (586086)
10-11-2010 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
10-10-2010 9:30 PM


Re: Mark
My producing identification is a part of the monetary process.

You can call it that if you like. It is a mandatory transaction regulation. It is not currency. As long as we agree on that there's nothing further for me to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:30 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Nij
Member (Idle past 1262 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 75 of 90 (586091)
10-11-2010 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Mark
Seems I keep arriving too late or too early.

Jar's already pointed it out; the mark is the "name or number" of the Beast.
This name and/or number would be exactly the same for everyone -- the number's given as exactly 666, in fact, and the "name" wouldn't be given at all (because of that supertition about knowing something's real name giving you power over it, or because you're not supposed to know it before the event, or because this was a late Jewish sect avoiding any overt reference to the guy who could have them executed for treason. Take your pick of reasons).

And knowing either is irrelevant. The mark is not traded for goods. It is not currency. It is not a monetary system.
The mark is used to grant permission. Hence it is a permission or licensing system.
Having permission to buy or sell and having money to buy or sell with are two different things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ICANT, posted 10-11-2010 10:18 AM Nij has responded

  
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