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Author Topic:   Research for a book - Survey of various dating methods
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 1145 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 46 of 82 (595959)
12-11-2010 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 2:30 PM


Dating What?
May I ask what prehistoric events you're talking about the dating of? It seems to me that the only prehistoric events that we know of are those brought to us through scientific investigations and would have little, if any, connection to Genesis or the Bible. Are you suggesting that the writers of Genesis knew about the ice age?

I'd be hard put to believe that even an ice age could have significant influence on a culture that didn't arise for five thousand years following its abatement. People just don't seem to have that long of an outlook: not seeing the forest for the trees, as it were.

The Germanic legends about the demise of ancient ice kingdoms don't need to refer back to the Ice Age to be understood, but to last winter. And flood myths don't need to be based on ancestral memories of the catastrophic filling of the Black Sea through the Bosporus three thousand years in ones past when the spring floods took out the farm for the last three years running.

I'm sure culture would have developed much differently had there not been an Ice Age, but would it do so in anyway we'd be able to quantify? Maybe the Chinese would have been able to populate Europe from the North instead of the Arabians populating it from the South, and Eric Idle would have been singing "I Like Engleses. We only come up to their knees" Or like Tanypteryx's tag line asks "What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings?",


Tofu cars taste even better than regular cars World's first green truth.
This message is a reply to:
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damoncasale
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 41
From: Seffner, FL, USA
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 47 of 82 (595973)
12-11-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by lyx2no
12-11-2010 3:41 PM


Re: Dating What?
May I ask what prehistoric events you're talking about the dating of? It seems to me that the only prehistoric events that we know of are those brought to us through scientific investigations and would have little, if any, connection to Genesis or the Bible. Are you suggesting that the writers of Genesis knew about the ice age?

Because I believe Genesis 1-3 to be non-literal and that Adam and Eve were not the first humans in existence, I want to put Genesis 1-3 into its proper cultural context. Basically, I want to compare the biblical creation account with the cultures and religious beliefs of Egypt and Sumer.

In order to do this properly, though, I want to explore where the peoples of Egypt and Sumer came from and what their religious symbolism has its roots in. I've already mentioned part of what I plan to use as evidence for that -- that the peoples of ancient Egypt and Sumer used astronomical symbolism in their creation mythology to represent actual places on earth, and were therefore explaining in symbolic terms where they had come from -- but I still need to explore things like climate change since the end of the Ice Age, changes in the environment (like the change from savannah to desert in Egypt around roughly 3500 BC; this has ramifications for understanding their theology regarding the afterlife), prehistoric megalithic sites used by the precursors of these two countries (such as Nabta Playa), and so on.

As far as the writers of Genesis knowing about the ice age, no, they concerned themselves with mainly Sumer and its moral relativism (mainly espoused through the worship of the goddess Inanna, equivalent to the Babylonian Ishtar). But nevertheless, odd and unexplained cultural artifacts pop up in various places in the bible that we would need to look to the cultural context to understand. References to the constellations in Job 38:31-32, for instance.

Damon


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12742
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 48 of 82 (595975)
12-11-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 2:30 PM


I'm still waiting to see if there are any other recommendations of various different dating methods that I can cover in the book. So far I've gotten:

* Radiocarbon
* Radiometric
* Potassium/argon
* Milankovitch cycles
* Astronomical dating is unreliable

But that's about it. Anything else?

(1) You should mention dendrochronology, for two reasons. (Or three --- I don't know how extensively dendrochronology is used by archaeologists as such. Coyote would know.)

(a) It is used to calibrate radiocarbon dating.

(b) The uncalibrated radiocarbon data agrees well with dendrochronology, thus providing an independent check.

(2) Varves. These would not be of any use to archaeologists directly unless someone dropped an artifact in a proglacial lake. However, because they contain organic matter, they can be used as an independent check on radiometric dating.

(3) Ice cores. Again, there is little direct use for these in archaeology. However, where layers of snow are deposited annually, the thickness of the annual layers vary with temperature just like the thickness of tree-rings, providing an independent check on dendrochronology.

(4) Racemization dating. This doesn't actually work except in very specific circumstances none of which are likely to be present in an archaeological dig. However, it may be useful for your didactic purpose of showing things that don't work as a contrast to things that do.

(5) Fluoride dating. I don't know much about this, but I do recall that it was the first clue that something was wrong with "Piltdown Man". It might be worth looking into.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12742
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 82 (595976)
12-11-2010 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coragyps
12-10-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Radiocarbon dating
Exactly that has been done with potassium/argon (or argon/argon?) dating on ash from Pompeii - and they came out correct on the date. I have the paper at home, and can look up the citation if anyone wants it.

Thank you, I should be most grateful.

I shall shortly have to write my own survey of dating methods, and it would be nice to have some data like that.

---

This leaves my other question for Coyote --- do archaeologists ever use igneous rocks for dating purposes?


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12742
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 50 of 82 (595980)
12-11-2010 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 6:04 PM


Sidebar: Babylonian "Moral Relativism"
As far as the writers of Genesis knowing about the ice age, no, they concerned themselves with mainly Sumer and its moral relativism (mainly espoused through the worship of the goddess Inanna, equivalent to the Babylonian Ishtar).

Worship of a goddess does not a moral relativist make.

Take a look, for example, at the language used in the epilogue of the stele of Hammurabi (you should read the prologue as well, but as it's all very similar, I'll just quote the epilogue). NB: the paragraph breaks are mine, otherwise I have not altered the text as found here.

Laws of justice which Hammurabi, the wise king, established. A righteous law, and pious statute did he teach the land.

Hammurabi, the protecting king am I. I have not withdrawn myself from the men, whom Bel gave to me, the rule over whom Marduk gave to me, I was not negligent, but I made them a peaceful abiding-place. I expounded all great difficulties, I made the light shine upon them. With the mighty weapons which Zamama and Ishtar entrusted to me, with the keen vision with which Ea endowed me, with the wisdom that Marduk gave me, I have uprooted the enemy above and below (in north and south), subdued the earth, brought prosperity to the land, guaranteed security to the inhabitants in their homes; a disturber was not permitted.

The great gods have called me, I am the salvation-bearing shepherd, whose staff is straight, the good shadow that is spread over my city; on my breast I cherish the inhabitants of the land of Sumer and Akkad; in my shelter I have let them repose in peace; in my deep wisdom have I enclosed them. That the strong might not injure the weak, in order to protect the widows and orphans, I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to bespeak justice in the land, to settle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.

The king who ruleth among the kings of the cities am I. My words are well considered; there is no wisdom like unto mine. By the command of Shamash, the great judge of heaven and earth, let righteousness go forth in the land: by the order of Marduk, my lord, let no destruction befall my monument. In E-Sagil, which I love, let my name be ever repeated; let the oppressed, who has a case at law, come and stand before this my image as king of righteousness; let him read the inscription, and understand my precious words: the inscription will explain his case to him; he will find out what is just, and his heart will be glad, so that he will say: "Hammurabi is a ruler, who is as a father to his subjects, who holds the words of Marduk in reverence, who has achieved conquest for Marduk over the north and south, who rejoices the heart of Marduk, his lord, who has bestowed benefits for ever and ever on his subjects, and has established order in the land."

When he reads the record, let him pray with full heart to Marduk, my lord, and Zarpanit, my lady; and then shall the protecting deities and the gods, who frequent E-Sagil, graciously grant the desires daily presented before Marduk, my lord, and Zarpanit, my lady.

In future time, through all coming generations, let the king, who may be in the land, observe the words of righteousness which I have written on my monument; let him not alter the law of the land which I have given, the edicts which I have enacted; my monument let him not mar. If such a ruler have wisdom, and be able to keep his land in order, he shall observe the words which I have written in this inscription; the rule, statute, and law of the land which I have given; the decisions which I have made will this inscription show him; let him rule his subjects accordingly, speak justice to them, give right decisions, root out the miscreants and criminals from this land, and grant prosperity to his subjects.

Hammurabi, the king of righteousness, on whom Shamash has conferred right (or law) am I. My words are well considered; my deeds are not equaled; to bring low those that were high; to humble the proud, to expel insolence.

If a succeeding ruler considers my words, which I have written in this my inscription, if he do not annul my law, nor corrupt my words, nor change my monument, then may Shamash lengthen that king's reign, as he has that of me, the king of righteousness, that he may reign in righteousness over his subjects. If this ruler do not esteem my words, which I have written in my inscription, if he despise my curses, and fear not the curse of God, if he destroy the law which I have given, corrupt my words, change my monument, efface my name, write his name there, or on account of the curses commission another so to do, that man, whether king or ruler, patesi, or commoner, no matter what he be, may the great God (Anu), the Father of the gods, who has ordered my rule, withdraw from him the glory of royalty, break his scepter, curse his destiny.

Now, we can find in this, implicitly and explicitly, a view which is very far from moral relativism. Hammurabi thinks that:

* He has been installed as king and therefore lawgiver by the will of the gods.

* Shamash, "the great judge of heaven and earth" has "conferred right (or law)" on him.

* Hence Hamurabi describes his laws not as useful or convenient or practical, but as "righteous" and "pious".

* He asserts that his "wisdom" is superior to that of others ("there is no wisdom like unto mine") and therefore says that by reading his stele a man can "find out what is just". This is hardly the language of a moral relativist.

* He intends the laws that he has made to stand for all time. The only concession he makes to the possibility that the mores of the Babylonians might change is to call down the curse of the gods on anyone who thinks of trying it.

In short, he has the same essential theory of the nature of morality as did the ancient Hebrews. Morality is known to the gods (Shamash for the Babylonians, Yahweh for the Jews) was revealed by the gods to wise lawgivers (Hammurabi for the Babylonians, Moses for the Jews) and through them to their countrymen generally; and was unchanging and objectively correct.

The beef of the Hebrews with the Babylonians was that they had different gods and a different moral code; but not that the Babylonians thought that it was OK for different people to have different gods and moral codes, 'cos they didn't.

(There was also, of course, the fact that the Babylonians oppressed the heck out of the Jews. Their quarrel was not merely on an abstract plane over a question of principle.)


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Coragyps
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Posts: 5142
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 51 of 82 (595982)
12-11-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dr Adequate
12-11-2010 6:52 PM


Re: Radiocarbon dating
Doc - Renne, et al., Science, v277, pp1279-1280 (1997). It should be free online if you register at www.sciencemag.org

The abstract:


Laser incremental heating of sanidine from the pumice deposited by the Plinian eruption of Vesuvius in 79 A.D. yielded a 40Ar/39Ar isochron age of 1925 94 years ago. Close agreement with the Gregorian calendarbased age of 1918 years ago demonstrates that the 40Ar/39Ar method can be reliably extended into the temporal range of recorded history. Excess 40Ar is present in the sanidine in concentrations that would cause significant errors if ignored in dating Holocene samples.

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 1145 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 52 of 82 (595985)
12-11-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Dating What?
I clearly underestimated the degree of my confusion.


Tofu cars taste even better than regular cars World's first green truth.
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12742
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 82 (595986)
12-11-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Coragyps
12-11-2010 8:35 PM


Re: Radiocarbon dating
Thank you.
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Coyote
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Message 54 of 82 (595987)
12-11-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dr Adequate
12-11-2010 6:52 PM


Re: Radiocarbon dating
This leaves my other question for Coyote --- do archaeologists ever use igneous rocks for dating purposes?

Not in the type of archaeology I do.

My style of archaeology relies mostly on radiocarbon dating because we have plenty of the materials required for that method.

Some of my colleagues in other areas may use igneous rocks, but I would think that is more for paleontology than archaeology.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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NoNukes
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Posts: 5270
From: Central NC USA
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Message 55 of 82 (595989)
12-11-2010 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 2:30 PM


Astronomical dating nit-pick
quote:
* Astronomical dating is unreliable

I don't think "unreliable" is the word I'd use. Astronomical events happen at times that can be calculated reasonable well. But when the linkage of those events to historical happenings to happenings on earth is speculative, then astronomical dating is pure bogosity.

For example, we can determine the time when Halley observed Halley's comet because we can couple the appearance of the comet to the historical event. Usually we cannot do that.


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Percy
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From: New Hampshire
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Message 56 of 82 (596009)
12-12-2010 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by damoncasale
12-11-2010 2:30 PM


Your list should look like something this, and I've added a few items, but there are probably many more:

  • Radiometric dating
    • Radiocarbon dating
    • Potassium/argon
    • Uranium/lead
    • ...many, many more...
  • Year counting methods
    • Tree rings (dendrochronology)
    • Varves (sedimentary layers)
    • Ice cores
  • Astronomical dating
    • Observation of astronomical events at known times in history
      • Eclipses
      • Comets
      • Meteors
      • Sun spots
      • Nova and supernova
    • Dating of meteor, asteroid and comet collisions
    • Dating of material from meteors, asteroids of comets that have fallen to Earth
    • Dating of meteors, asteroids, comets, moons, and planets in space
  • Milankovitch cycles

--Percy


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damoncasale
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 41
From: Seffner, FL, USA
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 57 of 82 (596010)
12-12-2010 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
12-11-2010 8:26 PM


Re: Sidebar: Babylonian "Moral Relativism"
To those that recommended the various dating methods I could cover in my book, thank you!!

Worship of a goddess does not a moral relativist make.

True, but that wasn't the problem.

Unfortunately, I don't have the reference handy for this, but I remember reading that Inanna was described in one of the ancient literary cycles as doing whatever she wished, whether it be good or evil. I assumed that by association, her worshippers would do the same. Also, there was apparently a magical ritual that her worshippers used to symbolically assume different, normally undesirable traits. Anything from gender swapping to a disease was up for grabs, as I recall.

I recently packed away some of my books as I'm looking for a new place to live, and I accidentally packed that one without remembering that I needed it for the book. Oops. As soon as I can dig that back out, I'll post the reference.

Now, we can find in this, implicitly and explicitly, a view which is very far from moral relativism.

True, but note that this is long after the biblical Garden of Eden existed. And remember that even for the Israelites, there were times when they were righteous and times that they were wicked. I'm assuming the same would easily hold true for Babylon. And also, it appears that the Mosaic Law was based in part on the law code of Hammurabi, and that would only happen as a result of recognizing the inherent goodness of that cultural source.

Yes, I actually want to give a balanced view of Egypt and Sumer/Babylon in my book, as you can see above.

Damon

Edited by damoncasale, : No reason given.

Edited by damoncasale, : No reason given.

Edited by damoncasale, : Because it's early and my brain took a little while to percolate.


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jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 58 of 82 (596015)
12-12-2010 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by damoncasale
12-12-2010 8:11 AM


Re: Sidebar: Babylonian "Moral Relativism"
Unfortunately, I don't have the reference handy for this, but I remember reading that Inanna was described in one of the ancient literary cycles as doing whatever she wished, whether it be good or evil. I assumed that by association, her worshippers would do the same.

So very much like some of the descriptions of the God in the Bible.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12742
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 82 (596059)
12-12-2010 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by damoncasale
12-12-2010 8:11 AM


Re: Sidebar: Babylonian "Moral Relativism"
Unfortunately, I don't have the reference handy for this, but I remember reading that Inanna was described in one of the ancient literary cycles as doing whatever she wished, whether it be good or evil. I assumed that by association, her worshippers would do the same.

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things. --- Isaiah 45:7

I recently packed away some of my books as I'm looking for a new place to live, and I accidentally packed that one without remembering that I needed it for the book. Oops. As soon as I can dig that back out, I'll post the reference.

I searched the corpus of Sumerian literature for references to Inana. Isn't the Internet wonderful?

True, but note that this is long after the biblical Garden of Eden existed.

But surely if Genesis contains such allegorical meanings as you suppose, they relate to the time when Genesis was written, not to the time when it was set.


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 Message 57 by damoncasale, posted 12-12-2010 8:11 AM damoncasale has responded

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damoncasale
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 41
From: Seffner, FL, USA
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 60 of 82 (596089)
12-12-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
12-12-2010 4:43 PM


Re: Sidebar: Babylonian "Moral Relativism"
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things. --- Isaiah 45:7

This is a direct reference to Isaiah 10:5. "Oh, Assyrian, the rod of my (god's) anger, and the staff in their hand is my indignation (against Judah)."

Regarding the online Inana texts, it looks like what I'm remembering is from the Hymn to Inana (C):

To run, to escape, to quiet and to pacify are yours, Inana. To rove around, to rush, to rise up, to fall down and to a companion are yours, Inana. To open up roads and paths, a place of peace for the journey, a companion for the weak, are yours, Inana. To keep paths and ways in good order, to shatter earth and to make it firm are yours, Inana. To destroy, to build up, to tear out and to settle are yours, Inana. To turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man are yours, Inana. Desirability and arousal, bringing goods into existence and establishing properties and equipment are yours, Inana. Profit, gain, great wealth and greater wealth are yours, Inana. Profit and having success in wealth, financial loss and reduced wealth are yours, Inana. { Observation } { (1 ms. has instead Everything }, choice, offering, inspection and embellishment are yours, Inana. Assigning virility, dignity, guardian angels, protective deities and cult centres are yours, Inana. (6 lines fragmentary)

To diminish, to make great, to make low, to make broad, to and to give a lavish supply are yours, Inana. To bestow the divine and royal rites, to carry out the appropriate instructions, slander, untruthful words, abuse, to speak inimically and to overstate are yours, Inana.

Etc. Also, I remembered a bit more of the original reference. Apparently Inana had ceremonial worshippers called "pili-pili" whose role it was to do ecstatic dances and gyrations, symbolically assuming physical deformities, becoming transgendered, etc. The search mechanism on the site is hard to use. I did find very basic references using "pilipili" as a search term, but it would be helpful if I could see the surrounding context.

To sum up, though, just as later parts of the bible use a polemical approach to describe ethically distasteful practices of the surrounding nations, I propose that Genesis 1-3 is simply doing the same thing, using a different literary style than what is used later on in the bible, but one common to the ancient Near East at that time.

But surely if Genesis contains such allegorical meanings as you suppose, they relate to the time when Genesis was written, not to the time when it was set.

The early parts of Genesis were apparently originally written as a series of clay tablets, around the time that it was set. There are literary artifacts, called toledoth, marking the divisions between these original sections. They're normally translated as "these are the generations of (X)" in the text itself, and each of these marks the end of its respective section. Parallels to this can be found in the genealogical and literary tablets found at Ebla and Mari.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/...f-Genesis-Authorship.aspx

Apologies for the blatantly apologetic article (pun not intended). I'm not able to locate an online reference to the book this article quotes, or a sample tablet translation from Ebla. I do have two books on the excavation of Ebla on my bookshelf, but neither one of them give a decent-sized sampling of tablet translations, unfortunately.

Damon

Edited by damoncasale, : No reason given.


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