|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,483 Year: 3,740/9,624 Month: 611/974 Week: 224/276 Day: 64/34 Hour: 1/2 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Obama | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
...of why you all are so dumb: and you collective heads-of-chuckle No one sees your arguments when you include personal attacks in them. Basically all I know from debating with you is you think I am an idiot and you suffer from unrequited man love for Obama. Everything else has been lost because your venomous responses. Try being less of an asshole and we may actually listen to your arguments. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Well, to be fair what he voted for was to legalize certain future wiretapping that would have been illegal under current law. Wrong.
quote:No webpage found at provided URL: Source (Of course you've never been fair in this entire debate, have you?) Then again your take on this dopes nothing to absolve Obama. Lets look at everything the ACLU had to see about this bill.
quote: Looks pretty neocon to me.
For instance liberal icon Bernie Sanders voted against the Brady Bill, which instituted federal background checks for buyers of firearms.
Lets look what Bernie has to say on this.
quote:No webpage found at provided URL: Source Do not paint the liberal icon Bernie Sanders as soft on gun control. There was obviously a strong liberal reason for his stand on the Brady Bill. Where is the liberal stand Obama made on FISA. There is also a huge difference between not supporting and supporting. Barney Frank favors the legalization of gambling and opposed greater federal oversight of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and contributed to the financial crisis. How are these conservative/liberal issues? Gambling is actually something I would think would have more liberal support than conservative, but it is in no way a conservative/liberal issue. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Right, but that's not a "vote for illegal wiretapping", is it? I don't see how it is. Of course it is. It was a vote to make illegal wiretapping retroactively legal.
H.R. 6304 ensures the dismissal of all cases pending against the telecommunication companies that facilitated the warrantless wiretapping programs over the last 7 years. The test in the bill is not whether the government certifications were actually legal — only whether they were issued. In other words if the government requested the wiretapping the bill retroactively made all illegal wiretapping legal.
I'm not, Theodoric. I'm making the exact same point you are No you are not. There was a liberal reason for Sanders vote. (as shown by Sanders own words) You have yet to show a liberal reason for Obama's FISA vote. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Well, no. It's a vote to indemnify AT&T (basically) against civil suits stemming from their compliance with government instructions.
Government instructions that were illegal when they were made. lets look at 1) Governemnt makes a request of telecom to allow a wiretap that is illegal according to existing law.2) Telecom facilitates the illegal wiretap. 3) Congress passes a law that says no one can sue for the wiretap, because it is now retroactively legal. How is this not making the illegal, legal.
You're doing a lot of work with "in other words", there, for instance the somewhat dishonest conflation of civil and criminal courts. What affect does civil or criminal courts have to do on the legality? The reason the cases were in the civil courts is because the telecoms had allowed illegal activity. You are trying to confuse the issue(poorly I might add) by throwing in this claim of conflation. Also included in the bill is this that I posted earlier.
quote: Prior to H.R 6304 this was illegal. Now it is legal. How is that not making illegal wiretapping legal? Now again I ask you to defend your argument. What were the liberal values Obama was advocating for in this vote? You call yourself a liberal and you attack Bernie Sanders? You are an Obama centrist. Bernie is leading the good fight.You should learn to be proud of what you are. I am. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
So tell me, Theodoric, why is Obama's final vote for the entire bill somehow more diagnostic than his repeated votes against the very provision you're so upset about? Isn't this just another case, in fact, where Obama espoused precisely the very position you wanted him to, but simply refused to die uselessly on a hill for it? Who is upset? Projecting a little maybe. Why would I be upset? I always knew he was not a liberal. There is the rub. You keep making this claim about dying on some hill. If he were so liberal he would make some sort of liberal stand on something. It isn't compromise when you are always giving in. If you cannot see how this law made what was previously illegal now legal, then there is no longer discussing it with you. If you cannot understand the concept that something was once illegal and the law changed it to legal and then claim that the law did not make the illegal legal then there is no point in discussing this with you. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
I will give him this one.
But he is still not a liberal on gay marriage. He is very right center on gay marriage. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
When a majority of Americans support torture, you get torture, regardless of how liberal your president is. Wow. I can not believe you used that as justification. I guess you feel that the everyone should have gone with the majority and we should have declined give voting rights to blacks. You do realize that there is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority. Also, it does not matter what the majority wants a liberal president would fight for and maintain the moral and ethical highground on this. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
The President is not given the power to do so under our form of government. He's an executive, not a God-King. I'm sorry Big Black Daddy can't give you everything you want for Christmas, but you need to grow up and realize that the obstacle to further progressive achievement isn't Obama's laziness - he's done more for progressives than any other living politician, in fact - it's significant structural obstacles to precisely the kind of results you'd like to see.
Torture is something he has direct control over. He is the COC and all the intelligence agencies are in the executive branch and ultimately report to him. Tell me how he has no control over torture by US forces and US intelligence agencies. Does congress have to some how vote to end torture? How is congress stopping him? What are the structural obstacles to just stopping torture? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
Poll data is from 2005. I didn't realize the President was bound by or should govern by polls. I guess it is the new liberalism Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
and some degree of control over US intelligence agencies
If not the President, then who the hell controls them? They do fall under the executive branch. Or didn't you know that? Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024