Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion and IQ
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 16 of 88 (597748)
12-23-2010 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Omnivorous
12-23-2010 6:49 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
Incredibly ugly, indeed. It would appear that the Internet is the ultimate expression of that quote attributed to the Nazi propaganda minister, Paul Josef Goebbels (sollte das doch nicht als "Gbbels" ausgeschrieben werden?), that repeating a lie enough times makes it true (the creationists certainly are practicing it, as are many other fringe groups).
In order to properly evaluate the results of IQ tests (speaking as a non-professional), many factors have to be taken into account, including differing characteristics of the different groups being compared and whatever biases may exist in the tests. I think that IQ tests can evaluate the cognitive capabilities of individuals within a particular group, but we need to be careful when comparing different groups.
For that matter, what effect has signing had on Koko's intelligence ratings? Having learned other human languages, I've personally experienced thinking in other languages at a pre-verbal level, and pre-verbal German is different from pre-verbal English -- I've nearly bitten my own tongue having worked out a practical construction problem in pre-verbal German and then trying to offer the solution in English. There is a conceit among language students that languages structure thought and I subjectively feel that I have experienced that personally. Koko's sign language training has enabled her to take IQ tests, but have they also influenced the results of those tests?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Omnivorous, posted 12-23-2010 6:49 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 12-23-2010 9:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 17 of 88 (597750)
12-23-2010 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dwise1
12-23-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
What I was taught was that IQ tests best test the ability to take IQ tests.
Not only do IQ tests contain cultural biases, but also species biases. Hanabi-ko ("Fire Flower Girl", AKA "Fireworks Girl", because she was acquired on 04 July), AKA "Koko", the signing gorilla cover-girl for National Geographic, was given a number of human IQ tests and was scored at 85 and 95. The lower scores were attributed to species bias, such questions as where you would go when it starts to rain; two of the choices were a tree and a house, so as a gorilla she naturally chose the tree whereas a human child would have chosen the house.
Haha lol you cant compare ape minds with ours they evolved differently for example it is frustratingly hard to teach an ape how to count they dont get the just ad one tough their minds are way better then ours at remembering what was where. Example they thought an ape how to count and when the ape learned that they blacked out the randomized numbers on a screen after it pressed the first one astonishingly the ape pretty much did not care she pressed the numbers accordingly in no time while you and i would have a problem after the first 3 numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dwise1, posted 12-23-2010 6:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Omnivorous, posted 12-23-2010 9:42 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 18 of 88 (597752)
12-23-2010 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
12-23-2010 5:31 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
I always have trouble with the one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others questions.
hehe well usually one is rally different the others are slightly different.
Tough the above is only pattern recognition simple
small triangle larger triangle the largest triangle
small ball larger ball the largest ball
small square larger square ?????
The same principle applys to the word, or letter puzzles all you have to do is find a pattern and predict the outcome from this pattern for the thing in question.
Like say you have
The anwser is TDC both above have the last 2 letters and the first so the 3d should be the same.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-23-2010 5:31 PM ringo has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 19 of 88 (597761)
12-23-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dwise1
12-23-2010 8:37 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
dwise1 writes:
There is a conceit among language students that languages structure thought and I subjectively feel that I have experienced that personally. Koko's sign language training has enabled her to take IQ tests, but have they also influenced the results of those tests?
Given the dramatic effect that bilingualism has on the human brain, I cannot but think that Koko's test results--and her brain structure and function--were influenced by the learning of sign language.
Denser gray matter in the left hemisphere, and significantly increased neural activity in the right hemisphere when toggling between languages, distinguish the bilingual brain on fMRI scans so clearly it is considered a signature.
From the Society for Neuroscience web site:
quote:
More recently, scientists have discovered that bilingual adults have denser gray matter (brain tissue packed with information-processing nerve cells and fibers), especially in the brain’s left hemisphere, where most language and communication skills are controlled. The effect is strongest in people who learned a second language before the age of five and in those who are most proficient at their second language. This finding suggests that being bilingual from an early age significantly alters the brain’s structure.
Exactly how the brain organizes language in bilingual individuals has been debated for many years. Is each language stored in its own area of the brain or in overlapping regions? Thanks to technological advances in brain imaging, scientists have recently discovered that the processing of different languages occurs in much of the same brain tissue. However, when bilinguals are rapidly toggling back and forth between their two languagesthat is, in bilingual modethey show significantly more activity in the right hemisphere than monolingual speakers, particularly in a frontal area called the dorso-lateral prefrontal cortex (the source of the bilingual advantages in attention and control). This expanded neural activity is so prominent and predictable on brain scans that it serves as a neurological signature for bilingualism.
I'd love to see fMRI scans of Koko's brain while she toggles between listening and signing with humans and interacting with her own species.

I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past.
-J. Mellencamp
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dwise1, posted 12-23-2010 8:37 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 20 of 88 (597762)
12-23-2010 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by frako
12-23-2010 8:44 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
frako writes:
Haha lol you cant compare ape minds with ours
Haha lol you're an ape

I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past.
-J. Mellencamp
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by frako, posted 12-23-2010 8:44 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by frako, posted 12-23-2010 9:58 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 21 of 88 (597769)
12-23-2010 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Omnivorous
12-23-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
Haha lol you're an ape
NO NOO I was created in gods own image i am not......... wait thats right im an atheist and im an ape and proud to be one of the smartest animals on the planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Omnivorous, posted 12-23-2010 9:42 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 12-23-2010 10:06 PM frako has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 22 of 88 (597770)
12-23-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by frako
12-23-2010 9:58 PM


Re: Unsharpened, not dull
Frako writes:
...and proud to be one of the smartest animals on the planet.
quote:
"Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars and so on -- whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.
But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man -- for precisely the same reasons."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by frako, posted 12-23-2010 9:58 PM frako has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 23 of 88 (597774)
12-23-2010 10:27 PM


People, not a chat line
Let's have all the messages somewhere in the vicinity of the topic theme.
No replies to this message.
Adminnemooseus

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 24 of 88 (597787)
12-24-2010 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by frako
12-23-2010 4:52 PM


IQ is a measurement of different skills it has nothing to do with knowledge (well a small bit one need to know how to read, and in some cases calculate).
What's that got to do with what I said?
A better one to use would be Japan only 12% of them say religion is verry important and they have an average IQ of 105, While the US 60% of the people say that religion is verry important and you have an average IQ of 98/97
Again, I really don't think such country based comparisons mean anything at all.
Sure there are exceptions to any norm
What are you trying to deduce from any link between religion and IQ? That people are only religious because they're dim? Well, this is simply not true - the existence of highly intelligent believers proves that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by frako, posted 12-23-2010 4:52 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by frako, posted 12-24-2010 7:09 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 25 of 88 (597791)
12-24-2010 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
12-24-2010 5:32 AM


What are you trying to deduce from any link between religion and IQ? That people are only religious because they're dim? Well, this is simply not true - the existence of highly intelligent believers proves that.
No what i am saying is that dummer people tend to be more religius then smarter people there are exceptions to every norm tough the stats clearly show that there is a correlation.
The only question is does religion make you dumb, or are you religius because you are dumb
There are exceptions in some studies those with "little faith" did better then those with "no faith" and both did way better then those with "lots of faith".
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 5:32 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 7:20 AM frako has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 26 of 88 (597792)
12-24-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by frako
12-24-2010 7:09 AM


The only question is does religion make you dumb, or are you religius because you are dumb
Repeat after me: correlation is not causation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by frako, posted 12-24-2010 7:09 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by frako, posted 12-24-2010 7:44 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 28 by Panda, posted 12-24-2010 7:45 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 27 of 88 (597794)
12-24-2010 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Jack
12-24-2010 7:20 AM


Repeat after me: correlation is not causation.
So what would then be the cause that atheists score better on iq tests, and do better in school, that less religius people do better on SATs.....
I can see only 2 plausible causes that would explain this corelation
1. "smarter" people tend to question the religious garbage more and more often become atheists.
2. Religious people get dummied down by their garbage and lack of thinking.
Personally i think it is a little of both.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 7:20 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 8:00 AM frako has replied
 Message 48 by Blue Jay, posted 12-24-2010 12:33 PM frako has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 28 of 88 (597795)
12-24-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Jack
12-24-2010 7:20 AM


Mr Jack writes:
Repeat after me: correlation is not causation.
Repeat after me: correlation does not mean unconnected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 7:20 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 29 of 88 (597798)
12-24-2010 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by frako
12-24-2010 7:44 AM


I already answered this:
Intelligent people are more likely to question, and/or break, social norms; since the studies you reference regarding personal IQ/belief correlations were performed in countries which are predominantly religious, higher IQ correlates with belief.
As I said earlier, I predict that if you perform such a study in China, you will find that the religious tend to have a higher IQ than the general population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by frako, posted 12-24-2010 7:44 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by frako, posted 12-24-2010 8:20 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 30 of 88 (597800)
12-24-2010 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Jack
12-24-2010 8:00 AM


As I said earlier, I predict that if you perform such a study in China, you will find that the religious tend to have a higher IQ than the general population.
Though there is no evidence for this or at least i cannot find any study that would show this in china.
So to me this statement is a wild guess, i can see the logic behind it tough i doubt "smarter" people would follow it.
Why well we like to be sure of what we believe and religion is anything but sure in its facts.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 8:00 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Panda, posted 12-24-2010 8:36 AM frako has replied
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 12-24-2010 8:54 AM frako has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024