YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.

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El is indeed a name applied to God, in the Bible.YOu don't cite any sources - probably because this idea is your own invention.

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What better source than the OT of the Bible itself? Go to Deuteronomy 6:5 where you find this, using the Hebrew interlinear:

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Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, your God, (i.e. Hebrew, YAHWEH/YHWH your ELOHIM is one Jehovah. And you shall love Jehovah, your God, (again, YHWH your ELOHIM with all your heart........

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Please note carefully the wording in this text, Jehovah [meaning the existing one] is your god meaning deity. So Jehovah/YHWH is clearly the proper name of the Biblical god where as god/elohim is clearly what the god Jehovah is. It means he, the existing one/Jehovah is a god or deity. Now, do you yet savvy?? I don't know how much plainer I could explain it. I know my son when he was age ten would have easily been able to grasp and fathom this vaaaaary deeeeeeeply complicated concept, whereas you people ever so educated seem to have an awful biiiiig problem with it. Is it that you really don't want to admit to being taught anything by Mr buz who, alas has no degree, or what??Now, if el, (short for elohim) is indeed that, this would also apply to your el which you attribute to the Arabic word allah which has the same meaning. So allah/elohim/god is not the proper name of the Biblical god. It is a word used, meaning deity to describe what this Jehovah is. He is a god/elohim/allah. So in order for Muslims to claim Allah is the god of the OT, they would have to accept that Jehovah is also god/allah and would have no problem with that name. That's not the case, though. Their god's proper name is Allah and there is no proper name in the OT of elohim.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]

I notice that you rely on reading the English translation into the Hebrew - of one verse.I on the other hand pointed to three Christian sources, all of which acknowledged that El was a name of God - based on a reading of many verses. And that you have not answered.It is clear just who is reluctant to learn - just as was the case in the Isaiah thread where you were unable to comprehend how any one could prefer a coherent reading of the text over the mess you concocted to back up your preconceived ideas.Oh, and perhaps you can give me a source for your claim that Muslims have a problem wuth "Yahweh" - or at least a greater problem than the Jews who refuse to say it (or write it, excpet under special conditions) and some of whom even write "God" as "G-d".[This message has been edited by PaulK, 10-06-2003]

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Since you've done your research you can answer this one easily.

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According to Muhammads story of how the Quran was written, who appeared to him and told him to "Recite" ?

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Mohammed allegedly had visions and received messages from god/Allah all his life after about age 40 as I understand it. There was a time in his life when he wondered if his early visions were of god or of Satan via the jinn. His wife, Kadejah and others reassured him that they were of god.
According to Alfred Guillaume, Islam London, Penguin books, 1954 pp. 28, 29 while on a retreat to the mountains, in a dream the angel Gabriel came to him with a cloth on which was written a verse which, when he woke seemed to be written in his heart. He became very troubled and irritable, wondering whether this was of god or satan , thinking to commit suicide, but on his way to a precipice a voice from heaven allegedly came to him assuring him that he was to be an apostle of God.

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I notice that you rely on reading the English translation into the Hebrew - of one verse.

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PaulK, would you care to tell the good readers here exactly what the Hebrew text says? I have the words before me in my Hebrew/English interlinear. The English words I have posted are the nearest English equivalent to the Hebrew text arranged so as to be able to be read in English. Can you top that for the good folks here?

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I on the other hand pointed to three Christian sources, all of which acknowledged that El was a name of God - based on a reading of many verses. And that you have not answered.

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Welllll, ladedah and rootetoot for PaulK! He's got three Christian sources for his argument and to heck with what scripture itself says, it appears. Is that the best you can do, me friend?

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It is clear just who is reluctant to learn - just as was the case in the Isaiah thread where you were unable to comprehend how any one could prefer a coherent reading of the text over the mess you concocted to back up your preconceived ideas.

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Yah sure, PaulK and your nonsenese is getting too futile for the time I have to lend to it. Have a goodn n go with god, the god, Jehovah that is. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]

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there is no proper name in the OT of elohim.

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Berasit bara elohim... Recognize that, Buz? That is the part of the Bible, right at the beginning, that generally gets translated "In the beginning God... " It then goes on about heaven and earth and a garden. Elohim is used very frequently used to mean 'God.' Do you mean we should be translating all those occurances of 'God' with a little 'g'?

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Now, if el, (short for elohim) is indeed that...

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El is not short for elohim. El is the root word. It is common to all semitic languages and means, surprise, 'God'. It is derived from a word meaning something like 'strong.' Eloah is the singular in Hebrew. Elohim is the plural, interestingly enough.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Well I'll just point out - again - that translation is not exact. So relying on a translation for the sort of conclusion you want to reach is a poor argument. That you are relying on a single verse. That Bible scholars disagree wtih you - and you won't even discuss their findings.So, I have no problem topping your argument.And where is the support for your assertion that Muslims have a "problem" with the name "Jehovah" ?You are right about one thing - it is futile for you to keep insisting that you must be correct in the face of the evidence. So yes, go and run away because you can't admit that you are wrong - just as you did in the Isaiah thread.[This message has been edited by PaulK, 10-07-2003]

Well, so you know the story - or more likely looked it up.So Muhammand had a vision of the Angel Gabriel (there's that "El" again!). Consider the implications of that. Pretty much demolishes your claims doesn't it ?

Mr Buzsaw, I don't know what your probelm with the name of God, but I'd like to help you clear things up.First, 'Allah' in literal Arabic is translated as just 'God'. Not a specific name like Andya or John or buzsaw. The Muslims' main creed is (in arabic): 'Laa1 ilaha2 illa3 Allah4' which translates to 'No1 god2 except3 God4'.It can also be pointed out that Muslims consider that God has 99 names. These 'names' are not specific names, but more like a description of God's attributes, like ar-Rahman (Merciful), al-Latif (Subtle), or even al-Musawwir (Evolver).Second, YHWH? I don't know Hebrew, but there is a common word 'Huwa' in Arabic which means 'he' [singular male third person]. Let's see, The Qur'an, 112:1Qul1 huwa2 Allahu3 ahad4
Say1: 'He2 [is] God3, the One4Just a speculation of mine, but could it be that YHWH actually just mean 'He'? I understand that Jews are forbidden to say the name of God, so could it be that they just called God as 'He' (YHWH)?

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Second, YHWH? I don't know Hebrew, but there is a common word 'Huwa' in Arabic which means 'he' [singular male third person].

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Interesting. 'Huwa' is certainly a plausible pronounciation for YHVH. 'Jehovah' is crap. It is an invented vocalization. No one has actually known how to speak the word since the destruction of the second to the last Jewish Temple.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Right on the mark! Bullseye!! Touche'!!! The church I used to attend ALSO misinformed me about the religion of Islam! They said "Allah" was derived from Baal, the head of the Canaanite pantheon of gods. Then I got into a religious discussion with a Muslim during my 4th year in college, and he told me exactly the same thing that Muslim girl told you!!

"Jehovah" is definitely crap; it's a germanic trasliteration of the unpronouncable 'YHWH'.

What nobody here seems to realize is that there are two separate traditions of the creation in Genesis with two dissimilar names for 'God'. Two different groups of people got together with their stories and a Redactor combined the stories, and that's why there are different names for God. That's the history. Anyone care to comment on this??

Mr Buzsaw, I don't know what your probelm with the name of God, but I'd like to help you clear things up.

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First, 'Allah' in literal Arabic is translated as just 'God'. Not a specific name like Andya or John or buzsaw. The Muslims' main creed is (in arabic): 'Laa1 ilaha2 illa3 Allah4' which translates to 'No1 god2 except3 God4'.

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THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU, Andyea, my Muslim friend!! You have just wonderfully and succinctly demonstrated the basics of what I've been trying to say, but not knowing the Arabic language I didn't realize that the Arabic lower case for the word 'god' which could denote any god is a similar, but different word than the higher case capitalized word for the Muslim god, Allah which also means "God."
I was aware of your creed, which all who wish to become Muslims must believe and recite. But I have wondered how Muslims would write on paper "No god but Allah. As you have just explained, translated in English it would translate as follows:" No god except God." If you go back to my opening post #2 this is pretty much what I was trying to explain, that in Arabic there would be a lower and a higher case for god, except that I used the word "allah" for the lower case and Allah for the higher case or name of your deity. You have enlighened us all by showing that the lower case or 'generic' word for a god is "ilaha" and the higher case is "Allah."Now, you may be interested to know that in the Hebrew text there is only one word for "god" whether referring to Jehovah/YHWH of the Bible, Allah of the Quran or another god, and that word is elohim, meaning god. Translators, when translating the word go by the context as to whether they choose to capitalize it in the English. It it refers to Jehovah/YHWH, they capitalize the word. If they us it to denote another god, they use the lower case {non-caps.) So as to whether your god, Allah is in the Bible, that would have to be determined by the context in which it is claimed it exists and by whether your god and the YHWH of the Bible are one and the same. Again thanks much for this interesting lesson.

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It can also be pointed out that Muslims consider that God has 99 names. These 'names' are not specific names, but more like a description of God's attributes, like ar-Rahman (Merciful), al-Latif (Subtle), or even al-Musawwir (Evolver).

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That's also true of the Biblical god, Jehovah. Many names are attributed to him as descriptive, but that does not make them his official name.

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Second, YHWH? I don't know Hebrew, but there is a common word 'Huwa' in Arabic which means 'he' [singular male third person]. Let's see, The Qur'an, 112:1

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But there is no dispute among Biblical scholars, either Jewish or Christian that I am aware of that the word YHWH means "the existing one" or the "I am" as Moses puts it in the book of Exodus when Moses asked God who he should tell Pharoah of Egypt who sent him. Jehovah told him to say "I AM" has sent you. Genesis 3:14,15:" God replied, "I am who am." Then he added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you."
God spoke further to Moses, "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. "This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations."God3, the One4Just a speculation of mine, but could it be that YHWH actually just mean 'He'? I understand that Jews are forbidden to say the name of God, so could it be that they just called God as 'He' (YHWH)?{quote}But this superstition came about in the latter centuries of Jewish history and if that were the case, the scribes would not have been allowed to put it in the scriptures in the first place. There is no way for anyone to determine if the He referred to YHWH. I would doubt it very much as that name, YHWH/Yaweh, to my knowledge is nowhere in the Quran.

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Originally posted by Prozacman

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Two different groups of people got together with their stories and a Redactor combined the stories, and that's why there are different names for God. That's the history. Anyone care to comment on this?

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I'll comment on it . . . you're right!Also, some notes on the name of God:Elohim is plural in form, but normally functions as a singular noun. For instance in the opening lines of Genesis, "Bereshith bara Elohim", the verb "bara" is in the Qal masculine singular form.As has been mentioned, no one is completely sure of the original pronunciation the "YHWH". Because it was, at some point, considered ineffable, the Masoretic scribes pointed the tetragrammaton (YHWH) with the vowel sound indicators of "a-o-a(i)" to remind the Jewish reader to pronounce "adonai" whenever YHWH appeared in the text.The Germanic translations substituted "J" for the "Y" sound simply because they pronounce the letter "J" as "Y".Thus, it was the Germanic substitution of "J" for "Y" coupled with the Masoretic vowel indicators "a-o-a(i)" that resulted in the misapprehension that the tetragrammaton should be pronounced as "Jahovah".There are strong indications that "El" served as an original name of God. Quite possibly of Canaanite origin.There are also indications that the use of "baal" to refer to God in the generic sense was popular in Hebrew culture before the term was used among the Canaanites for one of their gods. This is apparent in the altered names of some persons in the OT. For example "Ishbosheth" was originally "Ishbaal". The "baal" part of the name was later changed to "bosheth" which translated means "a shameful thing".It is also possible that the plural form Elohim is a reflection of a pre-monotheistic Hebraic ideology.One sure thing, it is a complex topic.Namaste'Amlodhi

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What nobody here seems to realize is that there are two separate traditions of the creation in Genesis with two dissimilar names for 'God'. Two different groups of people got together with their stories and a Redactor combined the stories, and that's why there are different names for God. That's the history. Anyone care to comment on this??

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1. Genesis 1 is a sequential record of the creation and Genesis 2 is not sequential, nor is it contradictory to Genesis 1.
2. In Genesis 2:4 the Hebrew text says, "Jehovah God made earth and heaven." So you see here what I've been trying to say, that Jehovah, {the existing one} is the god (elohim) of the Bible. As Rei someplace correctly stated, there is no upper case or lower in the Hebrew. The context determines that in translating into English where we do have upper and lower cases.
8. Thus there are not really two dissimilar names for god as you state. The god of the Bible is referred by both his proper name and his discriptive names throughout the OT.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-07-2003]