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Author Topic:   New Type of Ancient Human Found—Descendants Live Today?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 15 of 209 (598112)
12-28-2010 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Omnivorous
12-25-2010 6:11 PM


Re: New Type of Ancient Human Found?
Omnivorous writes:
Here's a summary of the debate by David Johanson:
Please note I am quoting Johanson through Omnivorius' post.
The Multiregional Hypothesis:
some level of gene flow between geographically separated populations prevented speciation after the dispersal
Seems reasonable, particularly considering recent findings.
all living humans derive from the species Homo erectus that left Africa nearly two million-years-ago
Seems unreasonable, particularly considering recent findings.
natural selection in regional populations, ever since their original dispersal, is responsible for the regional variants (sometimes called races) we see today
As Damon Wayans when playing the clown from In Living Color would say "homie don't think so" right before he clubbed someone over the head. Recent DNA evidence indicates all are essentially modern Homo Sapiens, with a slight bit of spice from Neanderthals and/or Denisovans.
the emergence of Homo sapiens was not restricted to any one area, but was a phenomenon that occurred throughout the entire geographic range where humans lived
Doubtful, smells like appeal to magic.
Now for the converse:
In contrast, the Out of Africa Model asserts that modern humans evolved relatively recently in Africa, migrated into Eurasia and replaced all populations which had descended from Homo erectus.
Critical to this model are the following tenets:
homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated to other parts of the world to replace other hominid species, including homo erectus;
Homo Erectus appears to be more a cousin than a direct ancestor according to the most modern interpretations of physical anthropology, in accordance with actual physical measurements of the fossils.
after Homo erectus migrated out of Africa the different populations became reproductively isolated, evolving independently, and in some cases like the Neanderthals, into separate species
Guess we will have to wait for some shred of DNA from Homo Erectus to make this one work out. In the meantime it appears both Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals evolved from Homo Rhodesiensis, rather than Homo Erectus.
Homo sapiens arose in one place, probably Africa (geographically this includes the Middle East)
This hypothesis would, of course, fit in with the evolution of any other critter, be it observed or evidenced by the scanty fossil record.
Homo sapiens ultimately migrated out of Africa and replaced all other human populations, without interbreeding
Oops, the most recent DNA evidence indicates their was some slight inbreeding between modern Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals and the more recently speculated Denisovans.
modern human variation is a relatively recent phenomenon
Almost entirely, except for that lil' bit of DNA evidence.
I think the 'Out of Africa' hypothesis is mostly correct except for that smidgen of DNA from our distant cousins, none of which has been shown to be from erectus. One reason I see slight interbreeding is due to that old saying from New Mexico Tech "Socorro, where women are men and sheep are restless."
Reality is always more complex than a slogan.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 12-25-2010 6:11 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 12-28-2010 8:30 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 22 of 209 (598297)
12-30-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
12-28-2010 8:30 AM


OOA Appears Genetically Vindicated
Jon writes:
modern Africans would clearly derive, physically, from the species that stayed in Africa.
And genetically?
Please refer to Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup - Wikipedia
Also, please feel free to follow the whole story through all haplotypes.
Mine (or at least my first cousin's), for example is R1b1b2a1c.
From the Wiki article:
quote:
Y-chromosomal Adam is the name given by researchers to a theoretical male who is the most recent common patrilineal (male-lineage) ancestor of all living humans.
Please elaborate on what the Multiregional Hypothesis means to you as I am concerned we may be talking past each other. For example, humans have sequences from viruses incorporated into their DNA due to genetic transfer, therefore it is no surprise to me that there is a slight bit of Neanderthal DNA showing up as well, likely from a bit of genetic transfer from a little more than getting Neanderthal flu.
However both the Y-Chromosome and the Mitochondrial evidence indicates the Out of Africa hypothesis is not only likely but also close to irrefutable, as per my definition of the term. Otherwise we would see multiregional sources of both mitochondrial and Y DNA.
Perhaps you are working with different definitions than the ones I am working with, as per Omni's previous post and my previous readings.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 12-28-2010 8:30 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 12-30-2010 11:34 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 29 of 209 (598458)
12-31-2010 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
12-30-2010 11:34 AM


Re: OOA Appears Genetically Vindicated
Jon writes:
Genetically speaking, modern sapiens are of African origin. I do not wish to dispute this. The issue is concluding physical origin on the basis of genetic origin. This is a conclusion I do not find overly validated by the information available.
How can physical origin be separated from genetic origin? Are the genes not part of the body, or indeed, the instruction set for the body?
I am still confused as to what the Multiregional Hypothesis means to you.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 12-30-2010 11:34 AM Jon has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 30 of 209 (598459)
12-31-2010 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jon
12-31-2010 12:52 AM


Re: OOA: A Model of Migrations
Jon writes:
What I disagree with is the claim that for genetic information from group A to get to population X a thousand miles away that some members of A must have traveled all the way to X and mated with some of X's members. This is one way for the genetic information to travel, but it is not the only way, and so reconstructing a pattern of genetic movement should not lead us to believe we are also reconstructing a pattern of actual people movement.
Is this what the MH is about to you?
Obviously genetic replacement does not depend upon some individual or group traveling some 12k miles from Egypt to Siberia to replace the genome of some hominid outlier within one generation. It would take hundreds of generations along with an entire population, kind of like geologic or astronomic processes require a longer timescale than most are familiar with in their daily life.
Sign me still confused as to what you mean.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 12-31-2010 12:52 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 12-31-2010 11:48 AM anglagard has not replied

  
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