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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 421 of 527 (599526)
01-08-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 12:31 PM


I did respond Percy. Why don't you respond with evidence that a sophisticated system can be created without intelligence? All your survival of the fittest theory can show is death of the unfit.
If you don't know what natural selection is, I suggest that you find out.
We'll wait for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:31 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 422 of 527 (599527)
01-08-2011 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Dr Adequate
01-08-2011 12:42 PM


natural selection
Show me the observable evidence of natural selection developing sophisticated systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-08-2011 12:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-08-2011 12:56 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 439 by subbie, posted 01-08-2011 10:29 PM ICdesign has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 423 of 527 (599528)
01-08-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 12:48 PM


Show me the observable evidence of natural selection developing sophisticated systems.
Show me the observable evidence of a dog cremating the world in six ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:48 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 424 of 527 (599529)
01-08-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 12:01 PM


Re: It's about models.
ICdesign writes:
I can prove all day long that it takes intelligence to build a system.
No, you cannot. In fact you cannot even adequately define "intelligence". There's no clear consensus on what the word means.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:01 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 1:53 PM nwr has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 425 of 527 (599531)
01-08-2011 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 12:01 PM


Re: It's about models.
I can prove all day long that it takes intelligence to build a system.
How about showing one proof?
Remember you said you could prove.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:01 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 426 of 527 (599532)
01-08-2011 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by nwr
01-08-2011 1:15 PM


Re: It's about models.
nwr writes:
No, you cannot. In fact you cannot even adequately define "intelligence". There's no clear consensus on what the word means.
Oh yes I can.
I think its pretty brave of you to announce you have no clue what intelligence is.
Let me help you out;
Definition: intelligence (by Webster's)
Noun
1. The ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience.
8. The capacity to know or understand;
Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.

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 Message 424 by nwr, posted 01-08-2011 1:15 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 427 of 527 (599535)
01-08-2011 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 1:53 PM


Re: It's about models.
ICdesign writes:
Definition: intelligence (by Webster's)
Noun
1. The ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience.
8. The capacity to know or understand;
We can paraphrase that as: "Intelligence" means about the same thing as some other words that we can't define either.
Dictionary "definitions" are notoriously circular.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 1:53 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 428 of 527 (599536)
01-08-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Theodoric
01-08-2011 1:40 PM


Re: It's about models.
How about showing one proof?
As I stated earlier the burden of prove is on the person who claims a system can be built without intelligence. Walking you through the thought process to build a system is all the proof necessary.
Can you thread a needle without the thought process of what needs to be done and how to do it?
No you can't. That process is called intelligence.
I really do have better things to do than participate in these childish wastes of time.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 429 of 527 (599537)
01-08-2011 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 12:31 PM


Hi ICDesign,
We were in the middle of discussing several things:
  • The Mr. Chance/Mr. Selection example
  • How natural selection works without purpose or intent
  • The nature of evolutionary predecessors and whether they're half-formed or not
If you can respond to at least some of what people said on these topics then we can continue the discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 12:31 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 3:03 PM Percy has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 430 of 527 (599539)
01-08-2011 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Percy
01-08-2011 2:17 PM


If you can respond to at least some of what people said on these topics then we can continue the discussion.
Look Percy, for me it all boils down to what I have just recently posted. There is no need to discuss
points B,C,D,E,...when point A doesn't have an answer. Its a waste of my time dealing with all the smoke and mirror shell games you guys throw out there about what is intelligent or intentional purpose and so-forth.
I can prove you can't build a system without an intelligent process. Until any of you can prove it CAN be done, I have nothing further to say.
Thanks,
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Percy, posted 01-08-2011 2:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Theodoric, posted 01-08-2011 3:18 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 01-08-2011 3:25 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 01-08-2011 3:35 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 431 of 527 (599541)
01-08-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 3:03 PM


I can prove you can't build a system without an intelligent process.
Well I see you cannot since you refuse to do so.
Until any of you can prove it CAN be done, I have nothing further to say.
As I said in an earlier post. You claim to understand the TOE, but your posts and comments show that you clearly do not. You might want to research a little about science, the scientific method and proof. That would probably be a good start for you, but alas dogma trumps knowledge for you and your ilk doesn't it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 3:03 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 432 of 527 (599542)
01-08-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 3:03 PM


Hi ICdesign,
Well, then, I guess the only thing I can respond to is this from your Message 415:
ICdesign in Message 415 writes:
The best I have ever seen any of you offer is some insignificant little bacteria mutation that shows nothing of how a sophisticated system can construct without intelligence.
Almost all meaningful evolution is nothing more than insignificant little mutations. There is no direction, no goal. The complex systems we have today, whether muscles or bones or nerves or blood circulation or excretory or brains or lymphatic, evolved from minutely less complex systems, which themselves evolved from minutely less complex systems, and so forth back to life's beginning. Each minute change survived into the next generation because it provided some minute advantage.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 3:03 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by jar, posted 01-08-2011 3:33 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 435 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 7:14 PM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 433 of 527 (599543)
01-08-2011 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Percy
01-08-2011 3:25 PM


Remember that ICDESIGN also said "One living cell is more complex than the space shuttle. " in Message 136 so a "little bacteria mutation" should be an example of a complex system evolving without intelligence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 01-08-2011 3:25 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 434 of 527 (599544)
01-08-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by ICdesign
01-08-2011 3:03 PM


Hi ICdesign,
Another thought occurs to me, about where you said this:
ICdesign writes:
There is no need to discuss points B,C,D,E,...when point A doesn't have an answer.
Point A, how complex systems evolve without intelligence, does have an answer, but it is at the end of the chain of explanation and information, not the beginning. How complex systems evolve should actually be labeled point E, and you do need to discuss the prior points A, B, C and D (or however many there are) first.
A side note: the only thing your hostile responses are doing, like accusing others of shell games and smoke and mirrors and so forth, is provoking more hostile responses, making the discussion even more difficult. Again I ask you to set your marine instincts aside and focus on the content. If evolution is wrong then the evidence showing it is wrong must be out there, but you won't find it by picking up your marbles and going home.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Improve clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by ICdesign, posted 01-08-2011 3:03 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 435 of 527 (599550)
01-08-2011 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Percy
01-08-2011 3:25 PM


Percy writes:
Almost all meaningful evolution is nothing more than insignificant little mutations. There is no direction, no goal. The complex systems we have today, whether muscles or bones or nerves or blood circulation or excretory or brains or lymphatic, evolved from minutely less complex systems, which themselves evolved from minutely less complex systems, and so forth back to life's beginning. Each minute change survived into the next generation because it provided some minute advantage.
Again, that is fine if you and yours want to believe such a story. In the real observable world we live in we see no such ability. ToE goes against everything we know to be true in the observable, testable world. Sophisticated systems require conscious intent.
ICdesign
Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 01-08-2011 3:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Panda, posted 01-08-2011 7:58 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 437 by Theodoric, posted 01-08-2011 8:05 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 438 by Coragyps, posted 01-08-2011 10:14 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 445 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 8:39 AM ICdesign has replied

  
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