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Author Topic:   Counter-Intuitive Science
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 61 of 182 (600150)
01-12-2011 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
01-12-2011 8:47 PM


Re: Balloons & Bubbles
Is the pressure inside a bubble greater than outside the bubble?
I think yes, albeit only slightly. For a latex party balloon the interior pressure would be more different.
Note, however, that lyx2no is talking about a hot air balloon, one that is not closed off at the bottom.
Moose

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 182 (600151)
01-12-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Minnemooseus
01-12-2011 9:29 PM


Re: Balloons & Bubbles
Is the issue pressure or density? Why would the pressure be higher at one point then another?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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sfs
Member (Idle past 2555 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 63 of 182 (600152)
01-12-2011 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
01-12-2011 4:52 PM


quote:
Now that I didn't know. Can I see the math/reasoning?
You can see the math in this paper: Maruyama T and Kimura M (1974), "A note on the speed of gene frequency changes in reverse directions in a finite population." Evolution 28: 161—163 (although a special case had been worked out earlier). The basic intuition (to the extent that there is one) is that the only way a deleterious allele is going to fix is if it experiences a number of substantial "lucky" upward fluctuations; if that's going to happen, it's probably going to happen quickly, since otherwise selection will drive it to or near extinction. Of course, the probability that the deleterious allele will fix is much lower than for the beneficial allele, but the time to fixation conditional on fixation turns out to be the same, for a given selection coefficient.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 64 of 182 (600155)
01-12-2011 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
01-12-2011 8:47 PM


Re: Balloons & Bubbles
Is the pressure inside a bubble greater than outside the bubble?
Yes, though perhaps only very slightly greater. That difference is what holds the film (surface of the bubble) taut.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 182 (600156)
01-12-2011 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nwr
01-12-2011 9:47 PM


Re: Balloons & Bubbles
Okay, then next step.
If the pressure was greater at one point than at another what shape should be seen?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 182 (600157)
01-12-2011 9:50 PM


Oh, here's one that happened to me.
Once I was walking towards a set of sliding doors. I noticed them open and close for a group of people walking ahead of me, but when I came to them they wouldn't open. Judging that the sensors weren't sensitive enough to detect my modest weight, I decided to leap vertically in the air in the hope that when I came down the extra force of my impact would open the doors. It did not, and couldn't have done.
Why not?

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 182 (600158)
01-12-2011 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
01-12-2011 9:50 PM


Innies and outies?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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sfs
Member (Idle past 2555 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 68 of 182 (600159)
01-12-2011 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
01-12-2011 9:50 PM


quote:
Once I was walking towards a set of sliding doors. I noticed them open and close for a group of people walking ahead of me, but when I came to them they wouldn't open. Judging that the sensors weren't sensitive enough to detect my modest weight, I decided to leap vertically in the air in the hope that when I came down the extra force of my impact would open the doors. It did not, and couldn't have done.
Why not?
Even though you didn't realize it, you were already dead, and ghosts have no weight?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 182 (600161)
01-12-2011 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
01-12-2011 9:50 PM


Throw a rope over a pulley. Give one end to a 160-pound US Marine and the other end to his 180-pound sickly grandpa. Who lifts whom?

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 70 of 182 (600162)
01-12-2011 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
01-12-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Hot air balloons
Is the issue pressure or density? Why would the pressure be higher at one point then another?
The following assumes the burner is not operating, and it hasn't been recently operating. Temperature, pressure, and density gradients are at equilibrium.
My image is that the interior and exterior temperature, pressure, and density are the same at the bottom. There is no physical barrier to separate interior from exterior, and they are at equilibrium.
At the balloon top, the air is at its highest temperature, highest pressure, and lowest density. The higher T dominates over the higher P, and thus the lower density.
The pressure/height in the balloon analogy would be an inverted pressure/depth in water situation. Greater height results in greater pressure like greater depth results in greater pressure.
No, I don't have the physics to back this up, and I'm not going to pursue such. I have nothing further to say beyond "I may be wrong" - Let a real physicist take it from here.
Moose
Added by edit (Gas laws):
Boyle's law - Wikipedia
Charles's law - Wikipedia
Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 71 of 182 (600163)
01-12-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
01-12-2011 9:49 PM


Re: Balloons & Bubbles
If the pressure was greater at one point than at another what shape should be seen?
The shape does not depend on absolute pressure, but on the difference of pressure between inside air and outside air. For an approximately spherical bubble, that difference needs to be constant. The absolute pressure is lower at the top of the bubble than at the bottom, though the difference is probably too small to measure.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 72 of 182 (600165)
01-12-2011 11:11 PM


Mobius strip
My favourite example of counterintuitive is what you get when you cut a Mobius strip in half down it’s length. And then what you get if you cut the result down it’s length one third in from the edge.
Other good ones would be that you can cover a plant with ice to protect it from freezing, married men live longer than bachelors and the behaviour of anything bigger than a galaxy.

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 73 of 182 (600177)
01-13-2011 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by dwise1
01-11-2011 3:57 PM


Seasons and distance
In the dead of winter (around 04 Jan), we're 3 million miles closer to the sun than we are in the height of summer.
I refer you to Wikipedia's list of common misconceptions. In fact, we're closest to the sun in the northern hemisphere's winter. I'd also point out that since winter/summer don't co-incide in the hemispheres it should be obvious that the Earth's orbit can't be the primary driving factor.
Edited by Mr Jack, : Addendum and clarification.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 74 of 182 (600197)
01-13-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dr Jack
01-13-2011 7:59 AM


Re: Seasons and distance
About a decade ago, I tried to see what difference that 3 million miles would make. In our world atlas, I compared the winter and summer time average temperatures of regions the same mid-latitude north and south six months apart: ie, I compared our winter in Jan to their winter in July and our summer in July to their summer in Jan. And I chose what appeared to be roughly equivalent land masses, Australia and the US mid-west.
What I found was that the Australian summer, which is at perihelion (04 Jan, closest to the sun) was on average about 1.9C (3.4F) warmer than the US summer, which is at aphelion (04 Jul, farthest from the sun). So the temperature difference that 3 million miles make is a few degrees.
Of course, there are other meteorological factors that come into play which undoubtedly influence those results, so my findings are by no means conclusive. But I think that it does still give us some perspective.

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frako
Member (Idle past 327 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 75 of 182 (600211)
01-13-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
01-12-2011 10:24 PM


Throw a rope over a pulley. Give one end to a 160-pound US Marine and the other end to his 180-pound sickly grandpa. Who lifts whom?
If the pulley and the rope are almost straight up from the 2 the marine would lift himself trying to lift the grandpa. If the rope is longer so the marine can put the rope at an angle by walking a few feet away from the grandpa he can lift the grandpa if he is strong enough

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