|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: New Type of Ancient Human Found—Descendants Live Today? | |||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
And what of the point of an alternate theory with verified predictions? What predictions does the MR model make that differ from an OoA model with very limited interbreeding with Neanderthals and others?
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The main issue is that the old OOA model proposes a replacement with no continuity of regional characteristics (especially genes). And this is what we see with 95% of the genome. Only 5% of the regional DNA is kept which seems very discontinuous to me. It would seem to me that the major driving force was replacement with regional additions making up a small percentage of the resulting genome.
If you want to say that OOA and MH are identical in regards their proposals on regional continuity (and not adhere to the full-replacement scheme), then there's really no debate as far as the discovery laid out in the OP is concerned. This seems to be what you have been arguing for, the same results no matter which model we use.
Doing this, however, requires alteration of the OOA model to incorporate what is a prediction in the MH model, so that, as was originally the theme of this discussion, the discovery in the OP of regional continuity is a point in favor of the MH model. That is just it. The MH model does not predict that 95% of the wordwide human genome would be replaced by African DNA in a very short time period. The OoA model does predict this.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Why is this a problem for an MH model? Because the major driving force (>95%) was migration of DNA instead of gene flow.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
How does 'migration of DNA' differ from 'gene flow'? The spread of European traits across North America is a good example (and was mentioned earlier). It was due to the migration of Europeans that selected mates within their own population for the most part. It's not as if there was free gene flow between Europeans and the regional populations that resulted in European genes spreading across the continent and swamping the regional DNA.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Okay, so by 'migration of DNA' you mean 'migration of people'? Am I understanding that correctly? Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a migrating population. Obviously, there will be many generations in this migration just as there was in the migration of Europeans from Europe to the coast of the Pacific Ocean. The important mechanism is that members of this population showed strong mate selection for those within their own population. Gene flow was within the population, and the increase in population numbers is what explains the spread, not gene flow into indigenous gene pools.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
But as this discovery, along with others, shows there was gene flow. There was not the same gene flow between the populations as there was within each population. The major mechanism was migration, not gene flow.
Furthermore, your assumptions regarding mate selection are misplaced, as the continuation of pre-sapiens traits clearly shows selection of mates outside of the sapiens group, not to mention the fact that it is fallacious to impose a model based on modern racial behavior onto a group of people so far removed in time and culture from the moderns. Divergence between the human groups evidences interrupted gene flow through mate selection, as does the 95% dominance of African DNA in modern populations. Also, xenophobia amongst human groups seems to be the norm, not the exception. I don't see why earlier humans would be any different.
But now given your clarification on 'migration of DNA', I can say that your statement that 'the major driving force (>95%) was migration of DNA instead of gene flow' is exactly the claim that remains to be proven. One way we can check for verification is, as I've already mentioned, to look at actual evidence from the time of the supposed replacement. This is given by Y-chromosome data. It demonstrates the timing of the migration and subsequent replacement: http://nadge.org/...igration-Map-Spencer_Wells2-1024x524.jpg We see zero Y-chromosome haplotypes from Neanderthals and the Denisova species moving from outside of African into Africa. All of the movement is out of Africa.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
This claim is based on ... ? The genetic divergence of anatomically modern humans, neanderthals, and the Denisova species. This genetic divergence required 300,000 years of very limited to no gene flow.
Again, this is the claim to be supported. You cannot continue stating it as fact without any supporting evidence. Which I supplied with the Y-chromosome haplomap, the dominance of African DNA across the globe, and modern examples of the mechanism in action.
Interrupted, but not permanently ceased. Since these populations no longer exist I think it is quite permanent.
What of this DNA tells you it is African? And, why is genetic distribution a measurement of population movements? The most diverse genetic groups are found in Africa, and they include the alleles found in human groups outside of Africa. Regional alleles are modifications of these African alleles (except for the tiny percentage of alleles from non-African, non-modern human populations). This means the source was Africa. Also, when people migrate they tend to bring their gonads along for the ride. When you find their DNA somewhere else in such a large bloc (95%) it is because it was taken there.
How are these measurements taken? Are only modern populations used? These measurements are taken using molecular clock data using modern DNA. Since we are talking about the evolution of modern humans this seems to be a viable sample pool.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Unfortunately the genetic evidence available cannot address this question, as the genetic difference between any modern and archaic population in the process of evolving will certainly be great. Not if there is uninterrupted gene flow between the populations as the MR model proposes.
Interesting how the link between genetic flow and migration continues to be repeated ad nauseam without a single effort to support this extraordinary assumption. What link? The genetic data points to very limited gene flow between the populations, not free genetic flow as the MR model proposes.
This is the first error: to believe we can discover truths about the past without ever needing look at it. Our genomes are direct records of the past. They are the written genetic history of our ancestors passed down from one generation to the next.
Genetic samples are valuable, but they only make sense in light of a workable modelwe cannot use the present as a sole basis for a model of the past. The workable model is OoA. MR fails to be a workable model, as we have been discussing.
Such fallacy is demonstrated by, for example, Alan Templeton, who's shown various analyses of the same genetic data to yield drastically different results. Could you cite his work so we could all take a look? (apologies if you have already presented it in a previous post)
On top of this, higher selection pressures on the peripheries (where population numbers are low and thin) makes the termination of mtDNA lineages more prevalent in these regions, a possibility demonstrated as fact in Mungo Man. So why is it that African lineages dominate for both mtDNA and Y-chromosome DNA? Why do the Y-chromosome haplotypes create a pattern of migration?
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Again, that is not what the genetic data show; they show that there is a small amount of surviving genetic continuity. The data shows that there was discontinuity between the populations for 300,000 years. It wasn't until populations migrated out of Africa that these genomes came into contact again, and even then the interaction was very limited resulting in the 5% of non-African DNA in modern populations. Also, why is there only a small amount of surviving non-African DNA? Shouldn't we find a lot more? As DNA moves through populations by genetic drift it has to be diluted by local variation. There is no way around it. What you seem to be pushing for is the genetic equivalent to homeopathy.
Absolutely false. I've demonstrated already that this is not the case. So what part of our genome was not inherited from an ancestor?
The claim that has yet to be supported, despite repetition of it as though it were fact ad nauseam. So what evidence, in your eyes, would support it? More importantly, what evidence would falsify the MR model as the major mechanism for the evolution of modern humans? ABE: I will definitely take a look at those articles and any others that are cogent. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Perhaps you can make references to the data you believe show this discontinuity, as well as how this discontinuity is relevant in the MH-OOA discussion? From the article in the OP: "The team estimates Denisovans split from the parent group of Neanderthals about 350,000 years ago."http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...volution-fossil-finger Likewise, neanderthals split from the modern human lineage at about this time. There were at least 3 human populations with highly restrictive to no gene flow for 300,000 years prior to the proposed migration of Africans into Asia and Europe.
Given the size and density of African (central) populations compared to the peripheral populations (Europe, Asia), it is no surpriseeven with an MH modelto find a higher proportion of African genetic material in the world population. This, along with the continued bombardment of peripheral populations by African DNA and the higher selection pressures (driven by the population size and density differences, among other things) for 'modern' traits, makes a modern dominance of African DNA perfectly reasonable within either an OOA or MH model. So what would the population differences need to be in order for this to work with an MH model? Also, why would African alleles that are specialized for the open savannas of Africa be selected for in Asia? On top of that, why would selectively neutral traits such as the protruding chin be selected for? That doesn't seem to jive.
Assuming an migration+interbreeding model: any halflings that result from interbreeding will be 50/50 carriers of sapiens and pre-sapiens genetic material and should be the oldest hybrids found in a region. If our model is mostly migration with limited interbreeding, then we should find these locations of 'halflings first' to be spotted around the Old World following the lines of migration. What about 30,000 year old neanderthal DNA from Europe that remain distinct from 30,000 year old anatomically modern human DNA? How does that fit in? Also, if MH is true then we shouldn't have divergent genomes to begin with, but we do.
We cannot use present genetic distributions to infer past population movements/histories. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Assuming a mostly gene-flow model with little migration: the earliest hybrids in the region will not be 'halflings', per se, but will be characterized by a higher proportion of pre-sapiens traits and a lower proportion of sapiens traits, with each later generation showing a higher proportion of sapiens characteristics than the generation(s) previous. The way I see it . . . If there was open gene flow then alleles should be evenly spread throughout the population to begin with. We should also see encroachment of Asian genes into Africa.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024