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Author | Topic: Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
That the paper expresses no doubts as to the existence of natural selection; also that the author is presumably neither retarded not insane. In the Box, page 5 he does express quite of bit of doubt about the importance of natural selection. He says important, but not dominant.Do you consisder natural selection dominant in the Modern Synthesis?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
And guess what, neo-Darwinism is in "the post-genomic era". If by "the Modern Synthesis" he means "what people knew about genetics in the 1920s", then the theory of evolution has indeed been improved by the accumulation of further knowledge since that time; and it seems otiose now to write an article urging that this should happen when it already has. He means by the Modern Synthesis as he describes "...Therefore, this year is perfect to ask some crucial questions: how has evolutionary biology changed in the 50 years since the 'hardening' of the Modern Synthesis?" By my calculations he is talking about after 1960.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Eugene Koonin writes: "...a far cry from the orderly, rather simple picture envisioned by Darwin and the creators of the Modern Synthesis. The biosphere is dominated, in terms of both physical abundance and genetic diversity, by "primitive' life forms, prokaryotes and viruses. These ubiquitous organisms evolve in ways unimaginable and unforeseen in classical evolutionary biology." Eugene Koonin writes: "Equally outdated is the (neo)Darwinian notion of the adaptive nature of evolution: clearly, genomes show very little if any signs of optimal design, and random drift constrained by purifying in all likelihood contributes (much) more to genome evolution than Darwinian selection." I am not reading anything into these quotes. They are self-explanatory. Whether he is right or wrong he is clearly saying that the Modern Synthesis is not holding up. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
He is wrong that the Modern Synthesis was written in stone in the 1960's and that no one is allowed to add anything to it. The health of the Modern Synthesis is exemplified in it's ability to absorb new knowledge which it is doing and continues to do. Besides, I don't see how Koonin helps the creationist argument. What Koonin is arguing for is a new theory of evolution First of all, when I posted Koonin's paper, I did not mention the creationist argument. I would ask that you not arrive at the conclusion that because I post something that challenges Darwin or neo-Darwinian theory, that I am a creationist attempting to discredit the theories. I am, as stated earlier in many posts, open to all theories. I do believe, as I have stated, that there is a creator.But for the last two years I have been reading all I can on the theory of evolution, pro's and con's. I have no idea how creation was carried out, but I do not out of hand reject Darwin or neo-Darwinian theories. Koonin is stating that evolution as stated in the neo-Darwinian Synthesis is not corrobated by the findings of molecular, micro, and gentic biological findings since the 1960's. But rather that new findings are not conducive to the theory as it is now. I think he is arguing for a more developed theory based on the research since the 1960's.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Again, you cannot discard the modern synthesis because it would mean ignoring the driving necessities that brought evolution and genetics together in the first place. We observe adaptive evolution (Darwinian evolution) everywhere, and genetics is the mechanism of adaptive evolution as demonstrated by the population geneticists of the 1920's. No matter how much evolution and genetics are enhanced and revised, the two of necessity must be combined. Koonin's proposal that we discard the modern synthesis, which would mean considering evolution and genetics as separate and independent, makes no sense. I really don't see him arguing for the rejection of Darwin and neo-Darwinian theories. I rather see him as saying that based on these new findings in biology the theories as stated do not agree with what has now been observed. The theories must be changed and altered to accomodate the new findings. Some aspects of the old theories will have to be modified or discarded. That in my mind is what science should be all about.You cannot hang on to a theory because it has always been that way.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
The theory of evolution is, simply put, everything we know about genetics that is relevant to evolution. That's the neo in neo-Darwinism. Darwin knew that there was reproduction, variation, and selection. We know the details. Finding out more details helps to flesh out the theory, it doesn't controvert it. Koonin is arguing that what we are finding out about evolution in the study of prokaryotes and viruses shows that they have and are evolving in ways not imagined by classical evolution theories. That these theories must be reevaluated based on the new findings in genetics, micro and molecular reseach.I believe he telling us that we are not allowed to rest on what we now believe about the theories, but must change them where necessary. Edited by shadow71, : spelling correction
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Does the science of evolution include what causes the mechanisms of evolution to work, not just how they work?
razd writes: Are you expecting us to debate Dr. Koonin's work against a blank slate? Clearly you seem to be enamored of his work, and to fail to support it after claiming that you find it compelling is rather ... somewhat ... disappointing? Perhaps you are not qualified (undereducated) to speak on this topic but present it because it reinforces some beliefs you have, but are honest enough to realize that you do not have the expertize to discuss it from a scientific basis (which is okay with me). You have his paper to read. You can refute his findings if they are not accurate. I assumed all scientists read papers , agree, disagree etc.. and reply to the author's findings.So I don't think you are working with a blank slate. I have never claimed to be a biologist, but I do feel I have the education to read and understand what is being written. Would you have the education to explain how product liability case law should be followed in order to prove a case in front of the jury in a case?Probably not, but you could read it and form your opinions on it, correct? razd writes: That kind of sums it up in a nutshell. We already have a web of life at the early stages from other sources, and we already have horizontal gene transfer between bacteria as a means of genetic exchange for single cellular life. These are not new, nor are they earth shaking revelations that shake the foundations of the science of evolution or rattle the walls of the ivory towers of the scientists that study evolution. Are you findings consistent with "Crick's Central Dogma of Molecular Biology" or do you agree that Crick's Dogma has been replaced by new findings by Temin and Mitzutant et. al. that have changed cellular informatics, and how the interpretation of changes in the genome take place?
razd writes: Nor does the theory of common descent, that life is related to life by descent from common ancestor populations, fail if there is horizontal gene transfer that provides essentially the same contribution to descendants that sexual reproduction does in multicellular organisms. It just means that identifying the "mama" and "papa" may be a little more difficult, but that the process of changes in the frequency of hereditary traits in (gene exchanging) populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities still occurs and is still subject to the trials and tribulations of survival, reproduction, drift, etc, within those ecologies. But the recent findings in Cellular information including a read write memory system view of the genome in lieu of the conventional 20th century view of the genome as a read only memory subject to an accidental change do change the explanation and the how of evolutionary change. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
razd writes: Rates of evolution change. Stunning. I fail to see any cause for a new synthesis nor any reason to say that current theory is in any jeopardy. But , would you agree, that alterations to the genome that occur in bursts and novel adapatations that require changes at multiple locations in the genome that can arise within a single generation would cause a rethinking of the Modern Synthesis?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . I agree. Are you familar with the new concept of "natural genetic engineering? If it is valid it will mean many changes in the modern synthesis. Thanks for the posting tips. I am trying to get a handle on them. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
razd writes: This again is his opinion. Opinion is not fact, nor is it able to alter facts in any known way, whether "mind-action directed" or not. What will alter the theory of evolution is facts and objective empirical evidence of portions of evidence that the theory does not adequately explain -- that is how science works -- not by opinions. Sorry Razd, this quote should have preceded my last reply in my previous reply.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Dr. Adequate writes: And if by "classical evolution theories" you mean everything we knew about genetics between 1850 and 1920, then what you say he is arguing is right. I for one would not roll the clock back on genetics 90 years. Koonin clearly stated in his paper the was referring to events after 1960.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Razd writes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Natural Genetic Engineering -- the Toolbox for Evolution: Prokaryotes Dr. Jim Shapiro, Chicago -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting synopsis that is 10 years old. Once again this is an issue that is old news in evolution science ... nor does it mean that "many changes in the modern synthesis" will be needed: this is still the change in frequency of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities - where in this case the ecology includes the bacteria. The theory is still that evolution is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it. Providing a more comprehensive accounting of the ecological factors is not a major rewrite of theory. Shapiro updated his paper and wrote a summary of his work in natural genetic engineering as per the abstract below.
Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century James A Shapiro Correspondence: James A Shapiro jsha@uchicago.edu Author AffiliationsDepartment of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, University of Chicago, Gordon Center for Integrative Science W123B, 929 E 57th Street, Chicago, IL 60637, USA Mobile DNA 2010, 1:4 doi:10.1186/1759-8753-1-4 The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century | Mobile DNA | Full Text Received: 14 August 2009Accepted: 25 January 2010 Published: 25 January 2010 2010 Shapiro; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. This is an Open Access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License (Creative Commons — Attribution 2.0 Generic
— CC BY 2.0 ), which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited. AbstractScientific history has had a profound effect on the theories of evolution. At the beginning of the 21st century, molecular cell biology has revealed a dense structure of information-processing networks that use the genome as an interactive read-write (RW) memory system rather than an organism blueprint. Genome sequencing has documented the importance of mobile DNA activities and major genome restructuring events at key junctures in evolution: exon shuffling, changes in cis-regulatory sites, horizontal transfer, cell fusions and whole genome doublings (WGDs). The natural genetic engineering functions that mediate genome restructuring are activated by multiple stimuli, in particular by events similar to those found in the DNA record: microbial infection and interspecific hybridization leading to the formation of allotetraploids. These molecular genetic discoveries, plus a consideration of how mobile DNA rearrangements increase the efficiency of generating functional genomic novelties, make it possible to formulate a 21st century view of interactive evolutionary processes. This view integrates contemporary knowledge of the molecular basis of genetic change, major genome events in evolution, and stimuli that activate DNA restructuring with classical cytogenetic understanding about the role of hybridization in species diversification In his paper he writes:
"Although there remain many gaps in our knowledge, we are now in a position to outline a distinctively 21st century scenario for evolutionary change. This scenariio includes the following elements. (1) hereditary variation arises from the non-random action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering; (2) major disruptions of an organism's ecology trigger cell and genome restructurilng. The ecological disruptions can act directly, through stress on individuals, or indirectly, through changes in the biota that favour unusual interactions between individuals (cell fusions, interspecific hybridizations). Triggering events continue until a new ecology has emerged that is filled with organisms capable of utilizing the available resources; (3) ecologically-triggered cell and genome restructurings produce organisms which, at some frequency, will possess novel adaptive features that suit the altered enviroment. Novel adaptive features can be complex from the beginning because they result from processes that operate on pre-existing functional systems, whose components can be amplified and rearranged in new combinations. Competition for resources (purifying selection) serves to eliminate those novel system architectures that are not functional in the new ecology; (4)once ecological stability has been achieved, natural genetic engineerinig functions are silenced, the tempo of innovation abates, and microevolution can occur to fine-tune recent evolutionary inventions through successions of minor changes. This 21st century scenario assumes a major role for the kind of cellular sensitivities and genomic responses emphasized by McClintock in her 1984 Nobel Prize address.Such a cognitive component is absent from conventional evolutionary theory because 19th and 20th century evolutionists were not sufficiently knowledgable about cellular response and control networks. This 21st century view of evolution establishes a reasonable connection between ecological changes, cell and organism responses, widespread genome restructuring, and the rapid emergence of adaptive inventions. It also answers the objections to conventional theory raised by intelligent design advocates, because evolution by natural genetic engineering has the capacity to generate complex novelties. In other words, our best defense against anti-science obscurantism comes from the study of mobile DNA because that is the subject that has most significantly transformed evolution from natural history into a vibrant empirical science." I understand this to mean he is saying that major changes are the result of planned, engineered functions in the cell that do not rely on gradual, random changes. That these changes can be novel in nature, and after that micro evolution settles in.Since the cells responce is to "stresses" very quicky, he does not see a role for natural selection, except when the novel adapations are completed and micro evolution fine tunes the changes.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
tag posts,
I have mentioned it. I don't see how Koonin's argument helps the creationist argument. Do you? I think it helps some creationists because of the complexity involved. One can construe this as planned.
This is why we do not use the neo-Darwinian Synthesis from the 1960's. We use the modern verison which incorporates everything that Koonin is talking about. I posted James A. Sapiro's abstract in re "natural genetic engineerilng" that goes beyond the 20th century theory in regards to randoness and natural selection. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
blugenes posts,
Koonin would certainly agree with Coyne and Dawkins that evolution is a fact. He treats it as a given in the paper you quoted from. There's nothing arrogant about stating this. It's true. And neither Coyne nor Dawkins think that we know everything about the processes by which evolution happens. Just like Koonin. The problem I have with saying evolution is a fact is that it assumes the process and the cause of the process are fact. I agree the evolution is a fact, but the cause and the manner of the process is still not fully determined. One can see historically that evolution has happened but not how or what caused it to happen. That is the theory and theories are not fact. Edited by shadow71, : add to sentence Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
tag writes,
What neo-Darwinism states is that mutation and selection are independent of one another. That is, mutations are blind to what is good or bad for the individual. This is exactly what we see with mobile DNA elements. They insert all over the place, and the helpful ones are kept through natural selection. In the paper I posted by James A. Shapiro "Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st Century" he writes: "Cell mergers and WGDs are the kinds of events that activate mobile DNA and genome restructuring. In order to fully integrate the genomic findings with our knowledge of mobile DNA, we have to make use of information about the molecular regulation of mobile DNA activities as well as McClintocks's view that cells RESPOND TO SIGNS OF DANGER, FREQUENTLY RESTRUCTURING THEIR GENOMES AS PART OF THE RESPONSE." (EMPHASIS MINE) This is contra to what you posted above.I think Shapiro is clearly stating that randon mutation and natural selection are not as clear as traditonal darwinists theorists are saying.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
james a. shapiro writes: The past five decades of research in genetics and molecular biology have brought us revolutionary discoveries. Upsetting the oversimplified views of cellular organization and function held at mid-century, the molecular revolution has revealed an unanticipated realm of complexity and interaction more consistent with computer technology than with the mechanical viewpoint which dominated the field when the neo-Darwinian Modern Synthesis was formulated. The conceptual changes in biology are comparable in magnitude to the transition from classical physics to relativistic and quantum physics. from razd post 528shadow writes I understand this to mean he is saying that major changes are the result of planned, engineered functions in the cell that do not rely on gradual, random changes. razd writes
Then you are jumping to a concussion. Above quote was taken from Shapiro letter to Boston Review Feb.10th. 2006
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2954 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Granny magda writes,
Eh? I don't think he is saying that. Where are you even getting that from? From the "more consistent with computer technology" line? That doesn't mean that biology is a product of planned engineering. I agree with RAZD, you are reading too much into such a simple statement James A. Shapiro writes in Boston Review cited earlier:
Unfortunately, readers of Boston Review may remain unaware of this intellectual ferment because the debate about evolution continues to assume the quality of an abstract and philosophical "dialogue of the deaf" between Creationists and Darwinists. Although our knowledge of the molecular details of biological organization is undergoing a revolutionary expansion, open-minded discussions of the impact of these discoveries are all too rare. The possibility of a non-Darwinian, scientific theory of evolution is virtually never considered. In my comments, then, I propose to sketch some developments in contemporary life science that suggest shortcomings in orthodox evolutionary theory and open the door to very different ways of formulating questions about the evolutionary process. After a discussion of technical advances in our views about genome organization and the mechanisms of genetic change, I will focus on a growing convergence between biology and information science which offers the potential for scientific investigation of possible intelligent cellular action in evolution. On this board the possibility of a non-Darwinian theory is never considered. Those who bring up the possibility are "uneducated". So I read James A. Shapiro and am posting his findings and conclusions. I agree he is not saying the whole theory is not valid, but he says, changes may be necessary. He, not me, mentions a possible intelligent cellular action in evolution. Am I reading too much into this to? Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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