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Author Topic:   Evil Muslim conspiracy...
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 189 (599882)
01-11-2011 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
01-11-2011 12:00 PM


Re: How can you ignore all of this?
But why does an opposition movement designed to counter the left's ideas bother you so much? Don't like the competition for ideas? Don't like the competition? You guys thought you had the protest field all to yourselves?
Because if you disagree with the left, then there's something wrong with your brain!
Oh wait, I see there that you already knew that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 01-11-2011 12:00 PM Coyote has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 189 (600464)
01-14-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by onifre
01-14-2011 2:50 PM


The leaders represent the religion the same as the Pope represents Catholicism - he is infallible according to doctrine,
Not always. Its only when he's in his magic chair...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by onifre, posted 01-14-2011 2:50 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 167 of 189 (601089)
01-18-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by onifre
01-18-2011 1:16 PM


Re: Sunni -vs- Shi'a
But the fact remains that, even if you don't believe the Pope is infallible, Catholic doctrine still says he is.
No, the Pope is not, generally, infallible. Its only under specific circumstances that he can be infallible.
Pop quiz: When was the last time those circumstances happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by onifre, posted 01-18-2011 1:16 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by onifre, posted 01-18-2011 6:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 169 by Iblis, posted 01-18-2011 7:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 175 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-21-2011 12:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 189 (601254)
01-19-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
01-18-2011 6:17 PM


Re: Sunni -vs- Shi'a
No, the Pope is not, generally, infallible.
"...in everything he says."
You needed to finish that statement.
No, it was finished as that. You are wrong to claim that "Catholicism says that the Pope is infallible". Its more correct that he can be infallible, under certain specific circumstances.
Only when he is in his "chair" as you said. But that means when he is in the official "Pope" position.
I was refering to Ex Cathedra. Its one of the those specifc circumstances:
quote:
infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:
  • The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely in his private capacity as a theologian, preacher or allocutionist, nor in his capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal.
  • Then it is only when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of faith or morals that he is infallible (see below, IV).
  • Further it must be sufficiently evident that he intends to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense (see DEFINITION). These are well-recognized formulas by means of which the defining intention may be manifested.
  • Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. To demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. Theoretically, this intention might be made sufficiently clear in a papal decision which is addressed only to a particular Church; but in present day conditions, when it is so easy to communicate with the most distant parts of the earth and to secure a literally universal promulgation of papal acts, the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.
    sauce
  • Pop quiz: When was the last time those circumstances happened?
    When he said you were ghey.
    No homo?
    Your source has the instances of papal infallibility:
    quote:
  • "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
  • Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
  • Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
  • Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
  • Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
  • Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
  • Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
  • So, really, the Pope is only infallible about 0.00001% of the time.
    But this is only a part of your wider argument:
    From Message 132
    The ONLY religion where true, infallible authority is found (currently, and ignoring Catholicism for this example) is in the Muslim faith. These infallible men DO define what Islam believes. They CAN make new laws. They DO have actual, unquestionable authority over Islamic doctrine and interpretation.
    So...
    If Obama comes out and says the US hates Muslims, that cares absolutely no weight. In fact, he would be fired as president. His opinion would have no bearing on US politics.
    If a Christian minister came out and said that Christianity does not accept homosexuals, that does NOT mean Christianity as a whole does not accept homosexuals. The minister's opinion would be just that, his opinion, and would have no bearing on Christianity itself.
    However... If an Imam says women are not allowed to show their face in public, that DOES mean it is Islamic law that women should not show their faces in public. The Imam's interpretation of scripture would have bearing on the Muslim faith since the Imam is infallible and their word is like that of Allah.
    In these three cases, only one has real authority. So it does matter which religion we are discussing. And when those Imam's call for violence as a resolution, it is like the word of Allah, and as such, it can be said that Islam is a religion that currently promotes violence as a resolution.
    The reason this is not said for any other religion is because no other religion has infallible, authoritative rule.
    I think you do have a decent point here, and it actually is on topic unlike me correcting you on Catholic dogma.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 168 by onifre, posted 01-18-2011 6:17 PM onifre has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by onifre, posted 01-19-2011 4:40 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
     Message 173 by frako, posted 01-21-2011 11:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Inactive Member


    (2)
    Message 174 of 189 (601552)
    01-21-2011 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by frako
    01-21-2011 11:45 AM


    Re: Sunni -vs- Shi'a
    Are you saying you're right 0.00001% of the time?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by frako, posted 01-21-2011 11:45 AM frako has not replied

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Inactive Member


    (1)
    Message 176 of 189 (601556)
    01-21-2011 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Artemis Entreri
    01-21-2011 12:17 PM


    Catholic Scientist writes:
    Pop quiz: When was the last time those circumstances happened?
    Pope Pius the XII 1950. It has been 60 years since a pope was infalliable.
    Not technically correct. According to wiki, Pope John Paull II was infallible in 1994 when he deemed that only men could be priest. This was not ex cathedra, but was considered infallible anyways.
    quote:
    For modern-day Church documents, there is no need for speculation as to which are officially ex cathedra, because the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can be consulted directly on this question. For example, after Pope John Paul II's apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (On Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone) was released in 1994, a few commentators speculated that this might be an exercise of papal infallibility. In response to this confusion, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has unambiguously stated, on at least three separate occasions, that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis although not an ex cathedra teaching (i.e., although not a teaching of the extraordinary magisterium), is indeed infallible, clarifying that the content of this letter has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.
    SOURCE
    Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-21-2011 12:17 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 177 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-21-2011 12:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Inactive Member


    Message 178 of 189 (601558)
    01-21-2011 12:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 177 by Artemis Entreri
    01-21-2011 12:38 PM


    Catholic Scientist = 1
    Artemis Entreri = 0

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 177 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-21-2011 12:38 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

      
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