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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 196 of 357 (604849)
02-15-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Straggler
02-15-2011 1:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
On the contrary - If there is a divine creator of the universe he has given us ample "excuse" to doubt "his" involvement.
Universe Creator Class End of Term Assessment: Must try harder.
I have also toyed with the idea that our universe was created by another being, but not exactly in the way that theists describe. Perhaps our universe was created by a high school student from a very advanced race, so advanced that making universes is (quite literally) child's play. The assignment given to this high school student was to create a universe that produces black holes and the entire range of start types, but one that does not produce life. The high school student tried his/her best, but somehow life still appeared in just one out of every 100 million star systems. Since any advanced race would grades on partial credit, I can only assume the creator of our universe received a B+.

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 Message 194 by Straggler, posted 02-15-2011 1:39 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 197 of 357 (604852)
02-15-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
.....have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Wow, 10:10! You're talking about evolution in a positive light now? The evidence for common descent of all life on earth is certainly "clearly seen" - so now you're giving up your excuses for contesting it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 198 of 357 (604897)
02-15-2011 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
02-15-2011 12:59 PM


A "just right" universe! is this universe.
Book Review: The Hidden Reality - WSJ
As explained in "The Hidden Reality" review by John Gribbin,
quote:
If the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve [not that I believe life forms on earth evolved to begin with] on planets orbiting those stars. So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
Why not read the book for yourself and find out about all the other "just right" properties that this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist?
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : added above quote reference
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Taq, posted 02-15-2011 7:43 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 200 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 7:47 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 201 by onifre, posted 02-15-2011 8:02 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 203 by NoNukes, posted 02-16-2011 8:47 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 199 of 357 (604898)
02-15-2011 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
As is explained in "The Hidden Reality," if the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve (not that I believe life forms on earth evolved to begin with) on planets orbiting those stars. So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
It's called confirmation bias. Look into it.
To put it another way, if a universe is not conducive to intelligent life who is there to notice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 200 of 357 (604900)
02-15-2011 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
John 10:10 writes:
As is explained in "The Hidden Reality," if the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve (not that I believe life forms on earth evolved to begin with) on planets orbiting those stars. So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
Why not read the book for yourself and find out about all the other "just right" properties that this unbeliever explains that are necessary for us to exist?
What do you mean just right?
How much stronger would it have to be to make a difference such that they burn out in a few million years?
What makes you think humans are any different than any other life?
How do you vary gravity without changing other factors?
Do you really not see how utterly stupid your interpretation of what it says is?
Edited by jar, : fix syntax

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 201 of 357 (604902)
02-15-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
Hi John,
So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
You currently find them to be "just right," but the matter will change depending on what model universe we actually live in. Which is currently not known. And will change the force of gravity one way or the other.
If the universe continues to expand at it's current rate, the force of gravity will not be enough to hold everything together, all the way down to atoms - source. How "just right" will the universe be then when everything the book explains is perfect right now is no longer the case?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 202 of 357 (604903)
02-15-2011 8:18 PM


I haven't read the previous posts, but just in case:
Maybe we are so well adapted to the universe and more local parts of our environment because, well, we adapted to them.
And don't make the mistake of thinking the conditions we experience now are those that we have experienced in the past. We are only 15,000 or so years from the last ice age.
For a look at those conditions google "last glacial maximum" or some such.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 357 (604929)
02-16-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
quote:
the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve.
Since you believe that gravity is "exactly" perfect right now, how much stornger would gravity have to be to produce the effect you describe here? As it is now, the very largest stars already burn themselves out in a few millions of years, while the smallest stars would take longer than 14 billion years to burn out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 204 of 357 (604972)
02-16-2011 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
02-15-2011 7:47 PM


A "just right" universe is our universe.
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of physicist Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality," not my quote.
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants:
Constants of Physics and Mathematics
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
If you want to believe in "other life" out there somewhere that is somehow the same as ours, show us the science that proves with reasonable accuracy that life exists anywhere else in our universe?
PS - Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 7:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by jar, posted 02-16-2011 1:10 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 206 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2011 1:12 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 02-16-2011 5:35 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 209 by frako, posted 02-16-2011 6:49 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 205 of 357 (604978)
02-16-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by John 10:10
02-16-2011 1:02 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of physicist Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality," not my quote.
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants:
Constants of Physics and Mathematics
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
If you want to believe in "other life" out there somewhere that is somehow the same as ours, show us the science that proves with reasonable accuracy that life exists anywhere else in our universe?
PS - Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
More total irrelevances?
The fact that we exist is of no more relevance to the way the universe exists than the fact that water fills a puddle.
It is also unrelated to anything I posted. My point is that YOU are misusing John Gribbin's explanation.
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:36 AM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 206 of 357 (604979)
02-16-2011 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by John 10:10
02-16-2011 1:02 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
So your religion tells you that there is no life elsewhere?
I'd be cautious, as the history of religious pronouncements shown to be incorrect by advances in science is not a one on which to bet the rent money.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:57 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 207 of 357 (604980)
02-16-2011 1:15 PM


A Man Said to the Universe
Stephen Crane
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 357 (605056)
02-16-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by John 10:10
02-16-2011 1:02 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants:
Constants of Physics and Mathematics
Okay, I looked. But I didn't see any support for the constants being "just right". I just saw a list of constants with an indication of the accuracy to which they had been measured.
quote:
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
You would say that no matter what the value of constants happened to be, if you existed.
Edited by NoNukes, : correct erroneous statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:16 AM NoNukes has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 209 of 357 (605063)
02-16-2011 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by John 10:10
02-16-2011 1:02 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
So if light wehere a bit faster life would not exsist, if gravity was a bit stronger life could not exsist, if pie was a round number life could not exist WHY NOT???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 210 of 357 (605143)
02-17-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by jar
02-16-2011 1:10 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by jar, posted 02-16-2011 1:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 9:47 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
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