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Author Topic:   Politicizing the AZ massacre
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 185 (601166)
01-19-2011 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Coyote
01-18-2011 11:29 PM


Re: Even more
Can you remind me what year it was that Betty Williams was nominated by the DNC to be the Vice-Presidential candidate, Coyote? No? (Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that Betty Williams is neither a citizen of the US nor resides within its borders?)

Can you remind me in what capacity Betty Williams, who is a citizen of Ireland, is authorized to speak for American liberals?

Is this like how you idiots on the right wanted Julian Assange "arrested for treason"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Coyote, posted 01-18-2011 11:29 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Huntard, posted 01-19-2011 3:34 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 185 (601168)
01-19-2011 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Coyote
01-19-2011 12:23 AM


Re: More?
You have still not accepted that it was an isolated nutcase that did the shooting, and still are trying to pin the blame on the conservative side of the political spectrum.

But nobody's done that, Coyote. After all this, how is it that you still don't understand the claim that is being made?

But just like a creationist you have deliberately twisted my statement into a deliberate misrepresentation.

Misrepresentation?

quote:
Those on the left are starting to fight back, and the righties don't like that at all!

Those words appeared in your post. Did you write them or not?

He was shooting his mouth off the day before too

Maybe he was angry after being shot by one of your guys.

You have to admit, lefties seem to do quite well with the hate speech.

If the best we can headline is Sandra Bernhard, for Christ's sake, I would say we're not doing very well at all. Where are all the bombs at Tea Party rallies? Why are we so bad at inciting violence that Sarah Palin has to make up death threats against herself? I really think we on the left aren't getting a lot of bang (bang bang) for our buck, here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Coyote, posted 01-19-2011 12:23 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 185 (601169)
01-19-2011 12:39 AM


Remember, liberals...
...if you aren't completely sanguine and forgiving about the fact that conservatives want to and are trying to kill you, you're just as bad as them, or even worse!

Take a page from Harry Wittington's book and apologize to the people who are trying to shoot you. Double-standards aren't just for minorities, anymore!


  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 185 (602570)
01-28-2011 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by onifre
01-19-2011 11:43 AM


Re: Letters since 2007
I'm people, I used it that way.

You may have, but that's not what the people you're talking about mean - they mean "promotes violence" as in "causes an increase in violence." That's what would be objectionable about that speech. Nobody would have any objection to speech that "promoted violence" as in "promoted a band."

You're just dishonestly equivocating on terms (and calling me names about it.)

But I don't care how you are using it, it's my use of it that we are discussing.

No, it's not. It's the use of the term by third parties that we're discussing - the third parties that object to speech that "promotes violence", or people who advertise products that "promote hair growth."

How would a product "promote hair growth" unless people grew new hair by using it? When I asked you that before you dishonestly changed the subject to promoting hair growth products even though that clearly wasn't anything we were talking about.

When I say: Islam promotes violence as a resoultion to violence.

Right, and you mean that Islam causes an increase in violence, "promotes violence."

I'm just myself, not some up-tight, intellectually arrogant, faux personality that I only exibit on forums.

Are you talking about me, now? I don't know how you could possibly conclude that I'm not uptight, arrogant, and fake in real life, too.

We have two facts, one that Hitler's speeches contributed, the other that their own personal feelings contributed. It could have been either one.

It could have, but the truth is that it was both. Hitler's speeches both promoted anti-semetism in people to whom it had never before occurred to be anti-semites, and it provided an environment supportive to, and emboldening of, people who already harbored anti-semetism.

Similarly, conservative murder speech is contributing in the US to an environment condusive to violence against liberals, Democrats, and minorities both by convincing people to become violent against such people and by creating an environment supportive of people who already were, like Loughner.

But to your original argument that Palin influenced Loughner, and the crosshairs lead to the congress woman being shot, you are wrong and should admit that.

I never said that the "crosshairs led to the congresswoman being shot." But it's clear that Loughner's actions were the predictable consequence of Palin's rhetoric. And how do I know that? Because Giffords predicted it before it happened. Only what is predictable can be predicted, by definition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by onifre, posted 01-19-2011 11:43 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 6:23 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 185 (603538)
02-04-2011 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by onifre
02-04-2011 6:23 PM


Re: Letters since 2007
It''s really not that big of a fucking deal to say, "Oh, you're using it that way. Cool. I've heard it used other ways but I get the jist of what you're saying."

And it's really not that big of a fucking deal to say "oh, you're right; I said something I didn't intend to say, made bad word choices, and miscommunicated my position." So why not man up and do it? Why is it that you, dronester, and the rest of your little chuckle hut have absolutely no capacity to admit error in anything even approximating an adult fashion? It's like you see that old Frogger cabinet art and you just completely lose your shit.

No I don't, even if I'm using the word completely wrong, that is not what I meant.

Fine, fine. Let's talk about it your way.

Does promoting things work? Does promoting a brand of soap ever result in more people buying that soap? Or is all of modern advertising just an enormous waste of time and capital? (Somebody tell the writers of Mad Men.)

I think this kid is a leftist nutjob, with anti-government and anti-establishment opinions, and he went a bit too far with that.

I think he's a currency nut who believes that the government is engaged in an effort to control the attitudes and actions of the American people through language. How, exactly, is that any different than Glenn Beck's program every single night?

And please, spare me another tiresome dictionary game about whether or not Glenn Beck is a conservative.

You did, and I provided the quote in the post to Jazzns.

And yet in that quote I do not state that the crosshairs led to the congresswoman being shot. That is not a claim I have ever made - the claim I'm making is that the crosshairs contributed to an environment that has directly resulted in violence by conservatives against perceived conservative targets. Or is it just a coincidence that Frances Fox Piven started getting death threats the day after Beck devoted an entire show to his goofy conspiracy theories about her?

Conservatives are promoting violence against liberal targets. (And I do mean "promoting" as in "contributing to an increase in.") The proof of this is the dramatically increased violence and threats of violence against the very liberals conservatives are designating as targets - Giffords among them.

AbE: I forgot - I'm not using the old Frogger cabinet art anymore; I'm using a "Retro" Frogger poster created by a Kotaku artist.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by onifre, posted 02-04-2011 6:23 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2011 10:16 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 164 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 12:51 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 185 (603541)
02-04-2011 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Coyote
02-04-2011 10:16 PM


Re: There are leftist nutcases too
Keep talking about bumper stickers, Coyote. People are actually dying at the hands of the people on your side:

quote:
Latinos are still wondering why the murder of 9-year-old Brisenia Flores raised none of the outcry of rancher Robert Krentz’s killing, which fueled Arizona’s tough immigration law. But the trial of a female Minuteman may finally bring the girl’s killers to justice. Terry Greene Sterling reports from the trial’s first day.

As a wounded Gina Gonzalez played dead on the floor of her mobile home in Arivaca, Arizona, in May 2009, she silently told herself to “stay real calm.” Her goal, Gonzalez told a Tucson jury on Tuesday, was to survive so she could save her 9-year-old daughter from the tall intruder in blackface who had already shot Gonzalez twice and killed her husband, Raul Flores. The killer “was all out of bullets,” Gonzalez testified, so he reloaded as her child, Brisenia Flores, pleaded for her life. Then Gonzalez heard two shots, and from the corner of her eye she saw her daughter’s body “fall back on the couch.”...

Gonzalez is a chief prosecution witness in the murder trial of Shawna Forde, a beautician and hardcore nativist from Everett, Washington. Forde is accused of masterminding the killings as part of her plan to steal drugs and money to fund her fledgling group Minuteman American Defense, which she envisioned would patrol the Arizona border in search of illegal “invaders.” She has pleaded not guilty to the murder charges, and her lawyer has tried to portray Raul Flores as a drug dealer and user, although only pot residue was found in the Flores trailer after the murders.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/...enia-flores-mother-testifies

quote:
Beck Linked With Stoking "Fears" That Caused Charles Wilson To Threaten Murray

In October 2010, Charles Murray was sentenced to a year and a day in prison for threatening Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) with "violence" in phone calls to her office.

Wilson Said He "Want[ed] To [Expletive] Kill" Murray Because Of The Passage Of Health Care Legislation. In an April 6 article, Politico reported that Wilson "allegedly called Murray's office on numerous occasions" saying that she " 'had a target on her back,' and 'I want to [expletive] kill you,' according to court documents." Politico also reported that Wilson "allegedly told undercover FBI agents that he carries a concealed firearm with a permit, and said he was 'extremely angry' with the passage of health care legislation."


quote:
On July 18, 2010, Byron Williams was stopped by California Highway Patrol and engaged in a shootout with law enforcement. He later said he was on his way to murder individuals at the Tides Foundation and ACLU.

Williams Wanted To "Start A Revolution" By "Killing People Of Importance At The Tides Foundation." On July 18, 2010, Byron Williams, a convicted felon, engaged in a shootout with police after being pulled over on I-580 in California. Williams was heavily armed, wearing body armor and wielding "a 9mm handgun, a .308-caliber rifle and a shotgun." After being taken into custody, Williams reportedly told investigators that "his intention was to start a revolution by traveling to San Francisco and killing people of importance at the Tides Foundation and the ACLU." [San Francisco Chronicle, 7/21/10]

Williams' Mother: Son "Was Upset" With "The Way Congress Was Railroading Through All These Left-Wing Agenda Items." The San Francisco Chronicle further reported that Williams' mother, Janice Williams, described her son as "angry at left-wing politicians" and at "what's happening to our country." The Chronicle further reported: "Williams watched the news on television and was upset by 'the way Congress was railroading through all these left-wing agenda items,' his mother said." [San Francisco Chronicle, 7/19/10]

Williams: "The Things" Beck Exposed "Blew My Mind." During an interview with reporter John Hamilton after his arrest, Williams said: "I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn't for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind. I said, well, nobody does this." Williams continued: "You need to go back to June -- June of this year, 2010 -- and look at all his programs from June. And you'll see he's been breaking open some of the most hideous corruption. ... A year ago, I was watching him, and it was OK, he was all right, you know? ... But now he's getting it." [Media Matters, 10/11/10]


quote:
Fox Allegedly Inspired Gregory Giusti To Repeatedly Threaten To Destroy Pelosi's Home

In December 2010, Gregory Lee Giusti was sentenced to a year and nine months in federal prison for threatening to destroy former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's home if she voted in support of the health care reform law.

Giusti Admitted To Making "More Than 30 Phone Calls" Threatening Pelosi Not To Support Health Care Reform. The Associated Press reported in April 2010 that in one recorded call, "Giusti said, 'if you pass this freaking health care plan don't bother coming back to California cause you ain't gonna have a place to live,' according to a transcript of the message included in an amended complaint." The AP added: "Officials said the caller often recited Pelosi's home address and said if she wanted to see it again, she should not support the health care overhaul bill that since has been enacted. Giusti left at least two recorded messages containing threats involving one of Pelosi's residences in Northern California, according to the complaint." [The Associated Press, 4/8/10]

Giusti Called Pelosi "A Witch" And Said He Didn't Like Her Pushing Health Care Bill "Down The People's Throats." The AP further reported that Giusti "told investigators he had phoned Pelosi about a half-dozen times, called her a witch and said he did not like her 'pushing the health care bill down the people's throats,' the complaint stated." [The Associated Press, 4/8/10]


http://mediamatters.org/research/201101130002

quote:
PITTSBURGH — A gunman wearing a bulletproof vest and "lying in wait" opened fire on officers responding to a domestic disturbance call Saturday, killing three of them and turning a quiet Pittsburgh street into a battlefield, police said.
Police Chief Nate Harper said the motive for the shooting isn't clear, but friends said the gunman recently had been upset about losing his job and feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,512560,00.html

quote:
(CBS) The woman who was wrestled to the ground and kicked in the head for holding a critical sign at a Rand Paul event says that the violence was "premeditated" and that her partner heard Paul supporters say, "We're here to do crowd control and we might have to take someone out."

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../10/27/earlyshow/main6995613.shtml

But that's fine, Coyote. Keep listening to Bill Maher - the libertarian - run his mouth. People are dying and you're concerned about bumper sticker slogans.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2011 10:16 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2011 10:49 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 185 (603544)
02-04-2011 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Coyote
02-04-2011 10:49 PM


Re: There are leftist nutcases too
Who did Alec Baldwin shoot?

Be specific, Coyote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2011 10:49 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 185 (603640)
02-06-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by onifre
02-06-2011 12:51 PM


Re: Letters since 2007
Because I didn't make a bad word choice, or miscommunicate anything.

Or, I guess you could just continue to pretend like you've never misspoken in your entire life. That's cool, too.

Whatever.

You're claiming that "people" don't use it like that.

No, I'm saying that when people say "promotes violence" like it's a bad thing, the "bad" part of that equation is the increased violence as a result, otherwise from what possible basis would they object? If "promoting something" had no effect on the rate or popularity of that something why would people even bother?

You got some balls, froggy.

Jesus, why so personal all the fucking time? Can't we just talk about this shit? Why does every little thing have to be such a huge fucking issue with you? Why do you have to be right about absolutely everything, even the stupid stuff?

Why do you so completely lose your shit when you talk to me? What's the deal, here?

Now who's the one being dishonest?

You, as usual. Where in the quoted material do I state that "the crosshairs led to Giffords being shot"?

Oh please, David Letterman gets death threats.

David Letterman always gets death threats because he has a national TV show. Does Frances Fox Piven have a national TV show? What is the name of the show and when does it air? Be specific.

It goes with being in the public eye and on TV.

Since when is Frances Fox Piven on TV? Be specific.

But Beck is an entertainer, so what's your point?

Since when is Beck an "entertainer"? Be specific.

You bashed Coyote for bringing up quotes from Bill Maher claiming Maher wasn't a politician.

No, I bashed Coyote for bringing up quotes from Bill Maher who isn't on the left, and who isn't someone whose speech has incited any violence against right-wing figures. Glenn Beck has, as I've proven. Sarah Palin has, as I've proven. This speech has an effect because it promotes violence. We've not yet seen the end of conservative murder speech and the result is that we've not yet seen the end of conservative murders and attempted murders - like the MLK attempted bombing that threatened the lives of so many liberals and minorities in Washington. The FBI recently concluded that the bomb was one of the most sophisticated they've seen in a long time. Of course, since a Muslim is not suspected to be the bomber the national media all but ignored it. It is, after all, now considered off-limits to try to link openly-armed Tea Partiers calling for insurrection to any actual instances of domestic terror.

The liberals are being their usual faggy selves and being drama queens about the violence. Maybe they should learn to fight, because they're getting their ass kicked by the GOP, literally.

Well, wait now. Do both sides do it, or not?

She was shot by a looney kid with wacked out leftist ideologies.

How is it "leftist" to be a white, male currency nut obsessed with political correctness? Sorry, Oni, that's a right-wing beef. Giffords was shot by a Randroid gun nut. This kid was about as "leftist" as Paul Weyrich.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 12:51 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 2:06 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 185 (603651)
02-06-2011 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by onifre
02-06-2011 2:06 PM


Re: Letters since 2007
So while a feel islam promotes violence as a solution to problems they face, I feel for the most part muslims would rather a non-violent solutions.

I think that's also true of most conservatives. But that's irrelevant to whether Islam promotes violence as a solution to political problems (it does) or whether conservative thought-leaders are promoting violence as a solution to political problems (they are.) The number of conservatives being pushed into political violence, or threats of violence, is significant enough that the Department of Homeland Security felt the need to warn people about it in 2009. And for the most part they've been proven correct, as I've shown. For some reason it continues to be unacceptable to point out this fact.

And the violence that is seen is not islamic promoted violence, but rather politically driven.

Sure. But why isn't there more politician violence? It's because there's a social stigma to solving your political issues by just killing your opponents. Societies universally agree that that's not how you're supposed to solve that stuff, and they develop various institutions to ensure that - democracy, for instance, or "shut up and do it my way or get killed" in others.

But anything that weakens that social stigma weakens the barriers against political violence. Since, practically, the only obstacle to someone engaging in random murder is their own mental decision not to do it, we're talking about an equilibrium that can be profoundly affected by nothing more than the words people decide to take seriously.

Which means that people who are in serious positions need to moderate their speech and not glorify mass murder as a solution to political problems. For the most part this is a conservative problem in the US which is why I've been calling it conservative murder speech. There's a difference in perception between speech by Sarah Palin and speech by Alec Baldwin. Alec Baldwin is an actor, which means he lies for a living and everyone knows it. Sarah Palin is a politician which means she lies for a living but demands that believe her. Currently you and Coyote are engaged in a kind of game where you try to pretend that there's no difference between an entertainer saying entertainingly angry things and a politician making angry claims that are taken seriously by people. The problem here is one not of what is true, but what people believe is true. Speech that convinces people that it's time to take up arms and kill their political opponents is a problem, because some number of people are going to believe it, and do so.

I guess you don't see that as a problem. You seem to think that unless we're having gunfights in the street about abortion, we're a nation of pussies.

I meant, as public figures it's normal to get death threats.

Then why wasn't Frances Fox Piven getting death threats before she was mentioned by Glenn Beck?

Look how cute she looks in the 80's:

So where were the death threats against Frances Fox Piven in the 80's?

Why have death threats against congresspeople increased since the increase in conservative murder rhetoric? Haven't congresspeople always been "public figures"? Are you really saying that no speech could possibly have an effect on the number of death threats public figures get?

I recognize that Beck's listeners have made death threats to her, but she is in the political arena and Beck is going to talk about her.

That's fine. But why does he have to call for her death? Why does he have to portray her not just as an ideological opponent, but as part of a concerted threat to the nation? Millions of people listen to his speech. Why does he have to put people at risk by inciting violence?

I'm not calling for laws to be passed or for any speech to be suppressed. I'm simply calling for Glenn Beck to be subject to a moral judgement by people like you and Coyote. I'm not asking for you to do anything but change your mind.

He's not?

He's a libertarian. Those guys aren't "leftists."

I'm not saying shot people, but you're making the case that every where liberals go conservatives are there to give them an ass kicking.

I'm afraid that they are - how else do you explain:

Conservatives are passing these out at their conventions. You know, the ones that look like gun shows, there's so many firearms.

The reading material they found him with was leftist, all of it.

"Leftist"? So what? Don't you think Glenn Beck owns a copy of The Communist Manifesto? I've seen him wave it around on his show. I've seen him refer to it as his favorite book because of how it reveals "the liberal mind."

Regardless, it remains that the kid was a currency nut who was against political correctness. His choice of reading material is irrelevant - he was as leftist as Rand Paul and shot a Democratic congresswoman who voted for the ACA, which proves it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 2:06 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 3:20 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 185 (603671)
02-06-2011 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
02-06-2011 3:20 PM


Re: Letters since 2007
Also, it's hard to just claim the rhetoric is doing the motivation, when each case has specifics that point to other factors too.

Really? What were the "other factors" in the case of Byron Williams, whose own mother has testified that his attempted murderous rampage at the ACLU and Tides Foundation was motivated entirely by his "mind being blown" by what he heard on the Glenn Beck show?

It seems that right-wingers are just tougher, and more prone to fighting than their left-wing counter parts.

...and? Don't you think the cause of that might just be the "fightin' words", the conservative murder rhetoric that typifies the right-wing political discourse?

Surely you don't think conservatives are just inherently more prone to violence? Huntard made a pretty good case why that's probably not true; in his country the leftists use murder rhetoric and the result has been violence from the left.

But Americans pay much more attention to entertainers, actors, radio DJ's, comedians, etc. by a large portion, more than they listen to politician's speeches.

But I'm not talking about "paying attention", I'm talking about taking seriously. When Geordi LaForge says that the Borg are coming to hijack the USS Enterprise, probably a lot of people are paying attention to that but nobody thinks they're watching a documentary. But when Sarah Palin says "death panels", it may be true that less people pay attention but the people who do fundamentally have reason to believe that they're viewing a person honestly making a claim of fact, not portraying a fictional character saying fictional things.

As I said, you're engaged in a game where you're trying to pretend that the only thing important is how many people pay attention, not how people are paying attention. There's a big difference in motivational power between fictional stories and claims made as though they're true.

All I'm saying is that the audience is much larger for Alec Baldwin on 30 Rock than a 5 minute piece on FoxNews.

But Alec Baldwin isn't telling people to kill people in his role as Jack Donaghey on 30 Rock, so what is the possible relevance of this fact?

There is a select few, who Palin has now joined, who say this stuff.

A select few? They're talking about killing liberals at conventions, Oni. We've given dozens of examples of this murder rhetoric from all corners of the conservative movement - the top media figures, the top politicians. Sarah Palin is currently the odds-on favorite for the GOP presidential nom in 2012, she's hardly a fringe figure in the movement. The best Coyote seems to be able to do is track down people who genuinely are fringe figures, or who aren't even liberals at all. And the worse he's able to find are basically bumper sticker slogans. In the meantime, conservatives are passing around "liberal hunting licenses" and shooting 7-year-old girls.

The bigger question for me is, not that they say it, but why are they the one's on the air?

Because it works. Arizona is liable to gain a Republican representative if Giffords has to step down. Political assassination works, that's why people try to incite it.

Fox News is an operating propaganda arm of the Republican Party. Roger Ailes has simply come right out and said so. They air Glenn Beck because it's useful to the causes of the Republican Party for them to do so.

It's cute, funny and targets the pro-gun crowd.

I guess I don't think it's funny to pass out a no-limit murder license. It just seems kind of mean to me. But then, the point of disagreement we apparently have is that I believe political violence is an illegitimate response to losses in fair elections, and you think it's perfectly legitimate. If some 7-year-old girls get shot? Why, that's just youth involvement in politics!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 3:20 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by onifre, posted 02-15-2011 7:37 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 185 (603673)
02-06-2011 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Coyote
02-06-2011 3:48 PM


Re: Local group cancels Palin visit...
Name-calling?

Really?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2011 3:48 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 185 (605044)
02-16-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by onifre
02-15-2011 7:37 PM


Re: Letters since 2007
What does Casper the Ghost have to do with anything?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by onifre, posted 02-15-2011 7:37 PM onifre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2011 5:04 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
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