Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 357 (605145)
02-17-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:36 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation.
Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better.
Edited by jar, : lost link somehow, put back in.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:29 AM jar has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 212 of 357 (605150)
02-17-2011 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Coyote
02-16-2011 1:12 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Coyote writes:
Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
So your religion tells you that there is no life elsewhere?
I'd be cautious, as the history of religious pronouncements shown to be incorrect by advances in science is not a one on which to bet the rent money.
So you deduce from my statement that I believe there's no life elsewhere? All I said was finding alien planets and showing aliens actually live there are two different things.
Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board.
And for what purpose?
To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2011 1:12 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Coyote, posted 02-17-2011 10:12 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:15 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 228 by Taq, posted 02-17-2011 11:44 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 213 of 357 (605151)
02-17-2011 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:57 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board.
And for what purpose?
To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.
So you think the space exploration efforts are being done to thwart your religious beliefs? You can't think of any other reasons to explore space?
What a joke! You need to get out more.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:57 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:37 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 214 of 357 (605152)
02-17-2011 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:57 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
The vastness of the universe is largely pointless if it is designed for us alone. Or even us a other tiny pockets of life elsewhere. As Richard Feynman put it:
"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."
Your universe designer continues to fail to meet the grade. Inefficiency and profligacy demand a D- at best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:57 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:42 AM Straggler has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 215 of 357 (605153)
02-17-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by NoNukes
02-16-2011 5:35 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
NoNukes writes:
John 10:10 writes:
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants:
Constants of Physics and Mathematics
Okay, I looked. But I didn't see any support for the constants being "just right". I just saw a list of constants with an indication of the accuracy to which they had been measured.
quote:
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
You would say that no matter what the value of constants happened to be, if you existed.
Scientists/physicists have looked at a number of these constants, and have determined that if they were different by just very small amounts, life as we know it on earth would not exist.
Your answer would say if the constants were different, then maybe life would be different. So what?
This is a cop out! All it does is ignore the fact that we do live in a wonderfully designed universe with wonderfully designed constants that allows life as we know it to exist. A seeker of truth would search for the why rather than always asking for the how.
If you want to live in your chance/what if world, be my guest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 02-16-2011 5:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:23 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 227 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2011 11:35 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 216 of 357 (605154)
02-17-2011 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:16 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
J10 writes:
If you want to live in your chance/what if world, be my guest.
Has it ever occurred to you that the universe is not fine tuned for us but that we are fine tuned to fit the universe (or at least the tiny tiny part of it we find ourselves in)?
What you are doing is the same as a puddle concluding that the hole it finds itself in was designed specifically for it to fit in.
It's silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:16 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:45 AM Straggler has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 217 of 357 (605156)
02-17-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
02-17-2011 9:47 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation.
Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better.
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
There are two truths that I know:
There is a Tailor God, and I am not.
Since you could have done better, let's see what you can do, not just opine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 9:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 10:39 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 223 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:56 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 218 of 357 (605158)
02-17-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Coyote
02-17-2011 10:12 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Coyote writes:
Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board.
And for what purpose?
To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.
So you think the space exploration efforts are being done to thwart your religious beliefs? You can't think of any other reasons to explore space?
What a joke! You need to get out more.
The technology we developed to get to the moon and back has been used to enhance life here on earth.
Some of the technology we developed exploring other planets in our solar system has also enhanced life here on earth.
But I think this paticular space exploration looking for alien planets out there somewhere that we can never reach/visit is a great waste of time and money. That's the sad joke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Coyote, posted 02-17-2011 10:12 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 02-17-2011 6:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 357 (605159)
02-17-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:29 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation.
Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better.
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
There are two truths that I know:
There is a Tailor God, and I am not.
Since you could have done better, let's see what you can do, not just opine.
Stop misrepresenting what I say.
Most of the Universe is NOT suited for humans. If your Divine Tailor created the Universe, why did she create one where almost all of it does not fit humans?
As I pointed out in Message 188:
quote:
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.
and in Message 193:
quote:
So again I ask, can you point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans so that we can test your assertions?
and in Message 200:
quote:
What do you mean just right?
How much stronger would it have to be to make a difference such that they burn out in a few million years?
What makes you think humans are any different than any other life?
How do you vary gravity without changing other factors?
Do you really not see how utterly stupid your interpretation of what it says is?
If you want I will gladly continue, but even if we look just at the Earth, most of it is not "just right" for humans which is why we built houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals. And we still can't live in many parts of the earth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:29 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 220 of 357 (605161)
02-17-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Straggler
02-17-2011 10:15 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Straggler writes:
The vastness of the universe is largely pointless if it is designed for us alone. Or even us a other tiny pockets of life elsewhere. As Richard Feynman put it:
"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."
Your universe designer continues to fail to meet the grade. Inefficiency and profligacy demand a D- at best.
As always you fail to understand not only the stage God created, but why He created it. But that's another topic that's above your pay grade.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 11:21 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 221 of 357 (605162)
02-17-2011 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Straggler
02-17-2011 10:23 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Straggler writes:
J10 writes:
If you want to live in your chance/what if world, be my guest.
Has it ever occurred to you that the universe is not fine tuned for us but that we are fine tuned to fit the universe (or at least the tiny tiny part of it we find ourselves in)?
It's not an either/or, it's BOTH!
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:23 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:59 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 222 of 357 (605163)
02-17-2011 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by jar
02-17-2011 10:39 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 10:58 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 223 of 357 (605164)
02-17-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:29 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
J10 writes:
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
From the science writer, and Pulitzer Prize winner, John McPhee.
"Spread out your arms to represent the 4.6 billion years the Earth has existed. Run your eye all along one arm and to the wrist at the end of the other to get to the start of the Cambrian period, 544 million years ago. The greater Permian extinction of 250 million years ago — when 96 per cent of marine species and three quarters of terrestrial ones died out — is about where the fingers begin. The whole of the Cenozoic era — the last 65 million years is in the fingerprint and with a single stroke with a medium-grained nailfile you could eradicate human history
Let's hope that there is no catastrophic equivalent of that single stroke with a nailfile in this supposedly perfectly designed universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:29 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:14 PM Straggler has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 224 of 357 (605165)
02-17-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:54 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
I never claimed I could do better.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals.
Edited by jar, : try to get an answer to points ignored

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:54 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:18 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 225 of 357 (605166)
02-17-2011 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:45 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
J10 writes:
Straggler writes:
Has it ever occurred to you that the universe is not fine tuned for us but that we are fine tuned to fit the universe (or at least the tiny tiny part of it we find ourselves in)?
What you are doing is the same as a puddle concluding that the hole it finds itself in was designed specifically for it to fit in.
It's not an either/or, it's BOTH!
The puddle probably thinks that too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:45 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024