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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 226 of 357 (605167)
02-17-2011 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:42 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
J10 writes:
As always you fail to understand not only the stage God created, but why He created it. But that's another topic that's above your pay grade.
Well putting aside the why that is apparently above my pay grade (how much is God paying you - I need to speak to my agent) can you explain the seeming extreme wastefulness of such a vast and overwhelmingly inhospitable universe?
Why soooooooooooo big when we soooooooooo small?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:42 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:27 PM Straggler has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 357 (605168)
02-17-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:16 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The quote was Scientists/physicists have looked at a number of these constants, and have determined that if they were different by just very small amounts, life as we know it on earth would not exist.
Then you should not have any problem answering the question of how much "G" would have change to make it impossible for us to have a working sun. Yet you continue to evade questions of this type.
quote:
Your answer would say if the constants were different, then maybe life would be different. So what?
Instead of making up answers for me, why don't you address the questions I have asked.
quote:
This is a cop out! All it does is ignore the fact that we do live in a wonderfully designed universe with wonderfully designed constants that allows life as we know it to exist.
I thought the point to this thread was for you to distinguish between a tailor made universe and an off the rack universe picked out of many universes. You don't really seem to care about that and so far haven't bothered to even make a case for your chosen answer.
Edited by NoNukes, : Fix quote tags
Edited by NoNukes, : tweak

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:16 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 228 of 357 (605169)
02-17-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:57 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
So you deduce from my statement that I believe there's no life elsewhere? All I said was finding alien planets and showing aliens actually live there are two different things.
Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board.
And for what purpose?
To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.
This is another example of how religious belief results in an aversion to new knowledge and a lack of overall curiosity about the world we live in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:57 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 229 of 357 (605197)
02-17-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Straggler
02-17-2011 10:56 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Straggler writes:
J10 writes:
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
From the science writer, and Pulitzer Prize winner, John McPhee.
"Spread out your arms to represent the 4.6 billion years the Earth has existed. Run your eye all along one arm and to the wrist at the end of the other to get to the start of the Cambrian period, 544 million years ago. The greater Permian extinction of 250 million years ago — when 96 per cent of marine species and three quarters of terrestrial ones died out — is about where the fingers begin. The whole of the Cenozoic era — the last 65 million years is in the fingerprint and with a single stroke with a medium-grained nailfile you could eradicate human history
Let's hope that there is no catastrophic equivalent of that single stroke with a nailfile in this supposedly perfectly designed universe.
Ignore the truth of the REAL Divine Tailor who says He will create a new heaven and a new earth to your own destruction (Rev 20:15 - 21:1).
But I'm sure John the Apostle never won any Pulitzer prizes for his scientific endeavors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 10:56 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 4:19 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 241 by frako, posted 02-17-2011 6:48 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 230 of 357 (605198)
02-17-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
02-17-2011 10:58 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
I never claimed I could do better.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals.
So what would you have done better that this REAL Divine Tailor you don't believe in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 10:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 4:21 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 357 (605199)
02-17-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:14 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
Straggler writes:
J10 writes:
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
From the science writer, and Pulitzer Prize winner, John McPhee.
"Spread out your arms to represent the 4.6 billion years the Earth has existed. Run your eye all along one arm and to the wrist at the end of the other to get to the start of the Cambrian period, 544 million years ago. The greater Permian extinction of 250 million years ago — when 96 per cent of marine species and three quarters of terrestrial ones died out — is about where the fingers begin. The whole of the Cenozoic era — the last 65 million years is in the fingerprint and with a single stroke with a medium-grained nailfile you could eradicate human history
Let's hope that there is no catastrophic equivalent of that single stroke with a nailfile in this supposedly perfectly designed universe.
Ignore the truth of the REAL Divine Tailor who says He will create a new heaven and a new earth to your own destruction (Rev 20:15 - 21:1).
But I'm sure John the Apostle never won any Pulitzer prizes for his scientific endeavors.
Of course the Apostle John has absolutely nothing to do with Revelation and Revelation is a recording of failed prophecy from over 1500 years ago.
And as usual, you still fail to respond to either the topic itself or any of the issues raised related to your posts and have nothing to offer except empty threats.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:14 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 357 (605200)
02-17-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:18 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
I never claimed I could do better.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals.
So what would you have done better that this REAL Divine Tailor you don't believe in?
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
And once again, I never claimed I would do anything differently. That is as expected from you, just misrepresentation.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:18 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:52 PM jar has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 233 of 357 (605201)
02-17-2011 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Straggler
02-17-2011 11:21 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Straggler writes:
J10 writes:
As always you fail to understand not only the stage God created, but why He created it. But that's another topic that's above your pay grade.
Well putting aside the why that is apparently above my pay grade (how much is God paying you - I need to speak to my agent) can you explain the seeming extreme wastefulness of such a vast and overwhelmingly inhospitable universe?
Why soooooooooooo big when we soooooooooo small?
Again you are deciding that God was wasteful in designing such a vast and seemingly inhospitable universe wherein He created matter and energy that holds it all together. Are you not now playing God?
Nice dodge, putting aside the why!
If you really wany to know what God is paying me, let's go to another forum section and discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 02-17-2011 11:21 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Taq, posted 02-17-2011 6:25 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 7:30 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 234 of 357 (605207)
02-17-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by NoNukes
02-17-2011 11:35 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
NoNukes writes:
I thought the point to this thread was for you to distinguish between a tailor made universe and an off the rack universe picked out of many universes. You don't really seem to care about that and so far haven't bothered to even make a case for your chosen answer.
The point of the thread when I entered into the discussion was to show the absurdity of the author's assertion that the laws of physics work only for an off-the-peg universe, and not for a Tailor-made universe.
Get it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2011 11:35 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2011 6:38 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 235 of 357 (605209)
02-17-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
02-17-2011 4:21 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 4:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 4:59 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 236 of 357 (605211)
02-17-2011 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:52 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?
It is called Hubris as well, thinking GOD creates for YOU, that humans are somehow the purpose of the Universe.
But yet again, I notice that you fail to address the issues raised.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:52 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 237 of 357 (605217)
02-17-2011 6:03 PM


This all reminds me of the little bacteria under my fridge that must think of me as their Creator.
Their home was first created as I was walking across the kitchen and tripped over my dog as she came tearing in (border collies, what psychos). At the time I just happened to be carrying a pitcher of orange juice that I had made minutes before hand. Needless to say, the orange juice found its way onto the kitchen floor. Days later I smelled something fermenting. As it turns out, some of the orange juice had made its way under the fridge where the temperature was a nice warm temperature, a temperature just right for those bacteria to multiply like mad. After a little bleach and elbow grease the problematic bacteria were taken care of.
Later that day I started thinking about the whole incident again. Could it be that those bacteria were amazed to find themselves in such a conducive environment? Did they erect little bacteria churches where pastors talked about the fine tuned universe they now found themselves in? Did it ever occur to them that their admittedly nice digs were nothing more than an accidental string of events that had nothing to do with them? What did they think when the bleach came along?

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 238 of 357 (605221)
02-17-2011 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Again you are deciding that God was wasteful in designing such a vast and seemingly inhospitable universe wherein He created matter and energy that holds it all together. Are you not now playing God?
Are you not judging God by comparing Earth to our needs?
Also, why would you think that this universe is made for us? We live on a planet that is one of many just in our solar system, a solar system that is just one of billions in our galaxy and a galaxy that is just one of billions across the universe. Why is it that the universe is made for us when we find ourselves on one planet amongst trillions? I would hazard a guess that there are more black holes than people and the universe is much more conducive to the production of black holes than people. So it would seem to me that the universe was made for black holes if anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 357 (605223)
02-17-2011 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:46 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The point of the thread when I entered into the discussion was to show the absurdity of the author's assertion that the laws of physics work only for an off-the-peg universe, and not for a Tailor-made universe.
Get it?
So get on with it. But as this is the science forum, what's expected are of you evidence based arguments. Sermons and incredulity don't cut it.
Seriously, if you aren't going to respond to questions or arguments then you aren't worth the trouble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:46 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 240 of 357 (605225)
02-17-2011 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:37 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
But I think this paticular space exploration looking for alien planets out there somewhere that we can never reach/visit is a great waste of time and money. That's the sad joke!
Why because we might understand the universe better, o i forgot you alredy understand it it was made by the snapping of gods fingers 6000 years ago. Well sadly moste of us are not convinced by these bead time stories and we want to know the truth.
And who knows maybe one day we will be capable of traversing the distances between stars and knowing where potentialy habitable planets are might be a good thing then or should we first build warp drives and just blindly point at a star and fly there with bible in hand hoping the place will be habitable and close enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:37 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:39 AM frako has replied

  
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