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Author | Topic: All Human Beings Are Descendants of Adam | |||||||||||||||||||||||
dennis780 Member (Idle past 4798 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Hi Phage, If anyone is using the pop. models to argue Adam and Eve's existance, then their arguement is amazingly flawed. However, you can quite easily use those models to argue that humans have NOT been in existance for millions of years, as suggested by evolutionary teaching. This is a fair arguement, with logical and documented evidence. Though the population growth would FIT with the Biblical teaching, it would also fit with countless other religious, and even many scientific beliefs. This would be an arguement against evolution, not for creation or christianity. Can someone point me to the graphs everyone is speaking of? I'm having difficulty finding the resources for the claim. Thanks,Dennis
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
If we are descendants of an ancestral population, why do we ALL have the traits that could "trace" our family line to one single being? Well we don't have 'The traits', as should be obvious now, we have mitochondrial traits which can be trace back to ME, men have y chromosomal traits that can be traced back to YA. In theory we could do this for any discrete genetic trait and they would probably identify lots of different MRCAs for each trait, because sexual mixing would confuse the lineage of the traits and some ancestral traits will be lost entirely. All of these estimates will give us dates much further back than that of our actual MRCA, and it is perfectly possible that many people will have absolutely no genetic contribution from that MRCA even though they are descended from them.
Why don't we have a mixture of traits that would tell us our great, great, ... great grandmothers were different people? Because, as I just told you in the last post, they weren't. When you get to you Great-great ... etc. grandparents they were all the same people, that is the entire point of the Identical Ancestors Point. As we go further back in time every modern day individual has an increasing pool of ancestors and the world population gets smaller. A natural consequence of this is that at some point the ancestral pool for everyone alive today will overlap 100%. If we go down a few great's to more recently however then of course we can discriminate different lineages, we do it all the time in genetic analyses. If we couldn't then how would genetic fingerprinting work? Or haplotype mapping.
Could this be because we have not tested for other family lines? No, the IAP is a direct consequence of population growth and the nature of human reproduction. We need 2 parents to be born, who themselves needed 2 parents to be born and going back far enough we all needed exactly the same large set of ancestors to be born.
Or could this be because there really aren't other family lines? Exactly, but this doesn't mean there never were simply that there aren't now, the other lines went extinct, similarly if we went a couple of thousand years into the future all of these things might have changed with a different ME, YA, MRCA and IAP having been established. This is because all of these things are determined retrospectively based on the constitution of a given population and a future population will have a different constitution to the current one. TTFN, WK
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
However, you can quite easily use those models to argue that humans have NOT been in existance for millions of years, as suggested by evolutionary teaching. No you can't. People who don't understand populations biology or genetics can apply simplistic mathematical models that they believe show this, but only because they aren't bothered by such trivialities as having their models bear any resemblance to reality.
This is a fair arguement, with logical and documented evidence. Wow, you just saying that totally convinced me, hallelujah, praise the lord.
Can someone point me to the graphs everyone is speaking of? Are you sure you are on the right thread? You are the first person here to mention graphs. TTFN, WK
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2719 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, WK.
Wounded King writes: and it is perfectly possible that many people will have absolutely no genetic contribution from that MRCA even though they are descended from them. Can you explain this for me (if you don't mind the brief tangent)? I'm having a tough time seeing how this is possible. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
In meiosis chromosomes segregate on the basis of random assortment. So in theory it is possible for an organism to produce a gamete only having genetic material from one of its parents. This is extreme and almost certainly never happens but the random assortment of chromosomes during meiosis does mean that genetic material from some ancestors is continually being lost in different lineages. Other factors mitigate this such as crossing over but the principle still stands.
For a more detailed analysis see this page. TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : Changed 'zygote' to 'gamete'
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Europa Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 68 Joined: |
Thanks WK, for the explanation.
Much appreciated. A natural consequence of this is that at some point the ancestral pool for everyone alive today will overlap 100%. This is fine.But, do you think we are assuming that it will overlap 100 percent? Think of the hypothetical scenario where there were 10 Eves (or 10 Adams) that were the fisrt humans. Suppose all 10 of them began the human population. What would be the difference we should expect to see in our population of today? This is a little different question. But would like to know your views on this.Do you think primate to human change was a catapulted change? I mean a macro-mutation sort of a change?
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
But, do you think we are assuming that it will overlap 100 percent? Only in as much as we assume that 2+2=4 and that most people have 2 parents. This isn't something highly theoretical and speculative, it is a natural consequence of sexual reproduction and what we know about historical global population levels.
What would be the difference we should expect to see in our population of today? Well if we started off with 10 Adams or 10 Eves then there wouldn't be a human population. Beyond that the question s too vague to answer, it is highly dependent on when this founder population is proposed to have existed.
This is a little different question. But would like to know your views on this. Do you think primate to human change was a catapulted change? I mean a macro-mutation sort of a change? Macro-mutation isn't a term in much common usage in modern evolutionary biology. This is principally because with an improving knowledge of genetics, particularly developmental genetics, it has become clear that small genetic changes can have substantial, what might be considered macro, morpholgical/phenotypic effects. I certainly don't think there is any reason to think that the divergence between humans and chimps, for example, would have been a dramatic evolutionary jump except perhaps in the longest geological time scales. There was an extensive thread a while ago about reconciling observed mutation rates with the degree of genetic divergence between humans and chimps and the estimates of when the split occurred. The rates and estimates seem to be compatible. TTFN, WK
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
PEDANTRY ALERT!!!!!
In meiosis chromosomes segregate on the basis of random assortment. So in theory it is possible for an organism to produce a zygote only having genetic material from one of its parents. This is worded a bit strange. A zygote can not have chromosomes from just one parent, otherwise it would still be a haploid cell. I think you meant to say that each parent could pass on chromosomes from just one grandparent on that side. For example, the mother could pass on chromosomes that came just from her father and none from her mother. Or you could replace "zygote" with "gamete" in your original post and it would make more sense. For 23 pairs of chromosomes the chances of this occurring are 1 in 2^23 or about 1 in 8 million. It is the same odds of flipping tails 23 times in a row.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
You're right, sorry about that, I meant gamete.
For 23 pairs of chromosomes the chances of this occurring are 1 in 2^23 or about 1 in 8 million. It is the same odds of flipping tails 23 times in a row. Sure, but there are billions of people on the planet and the further back up the ancestral chain you go the lower the numbers get, until at some point they are a virtual certainty. For great grand parents the page I referenced before calculates it as 1 in 747 without taking account of crossing over. Even when you factor in crossing over the numbers are still inevitable after about 10 to 20 generations. TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
dennis780 writes: However, you can quite easily use those models to argue that humans have NOT been in existance for millions of years, as suggested by evolutionary teaching. Who claims that humans have been existence for millions of years? I'd sure like to see some of that easy modeling? I believe you are blowing smoke about what can be shown using simplistic population models. Edited by NoNukes, : I'm bad at tags
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.4 |
Taq writes: For 23 pairs of chromosomes the chances of this occurring are 1 in 2^23 or about 1 in 8 million. It is the same odds of flipping tails 23 times in a row. It's worse than that, because chromosomes undergo crossing-over during meiosis so chromosomes inherited from both parent are mixed together before being passed on.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
It's worse than that, because chromosomes undergo crossing-over during meiosis so chromosomes inherited from both parent are mixed together before being passed on. The article I linked to upthread puts that figure at 1 in 70 trillion with crossing-over. TTFN, WK
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.4 |
Apologies, I missed this link.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I'm just bumping this thread since Europa seems to be effectively trying to open another one on pretty much the same subject. In fact I don't see why any of the questions in the new thread wouldn't be appropriate here, indeed we have effectively already answered most of them here. I'm wondering why Europa wants a new thread for us to rehash exactly the same explanations.
TTFN, WK
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
Hi WK,
Wounded King writes: I'm just bumping this thread since Europa seems to be effectively trying to open another one on pretty much the same subject. I hadn't seen this thread until today and being me I have a hypothetical question. Many assume that in Genesis 1:27 God created one woman and one man. The actual text says, "God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God created he (him there is no Hebrew word translated him); male and female created he them". It says them so there could have been hundreds even thousands. So if there was many people in existence at this time and then their descendants were all destroyed but 4 men and 4 women 2k years later. Could this produce the most recent descendant of living mankind as well as the diversity we see today? Just asking. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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