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Author Topic:   Professional Debate: Scientific Evidence for/against Evolution… “Any Takers?”
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 20 of 196 (564868)
06-13-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eye-Squared-R
06-06-2010 3:13 PM


quote:

We are not talking about Darwin's particular theory of natural selection. It is still (just) possible for a biologist to doubt its importance, and a few claim to. No, we are here talking about the fact of evolution itself, a fact that is proved utterly beyond reasonable doubt. To claim equal time for creation science in biology classes is about as sensible as to claim equal time for the flat-earth theory in astronomy classes. Or, as someone has pointed out, you might as well claim equal time in sex education classes for the stork theory. It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).

Richard Dawkins


My bold, in your favourite colour. I just thought I'd put that in to make the point that Dawkins was talking about the fact of evolution, rather than any particular explanatory theory.

Taken literally, it would be a very one sided debate by most definitions of biological evolution.

For non-believers, the adjectives ignorant, stupid or delusional (rather than insane) seem to cover all possible ground, unless you count "dead".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 06-06-2010 3:13 PM Eye-Squared-R has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 06-19-2010 1:58 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 85 of 196 (601137)
01-18-2011 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Eye-Squared-R
01-16-2011 4:35 PM


Creationism declining.
Eye-Squared-R writes:

According to most polls of American beliefs, evolution is losing in the marketplace of ideas as demonstrated by the magnitude of “unbelievers”.

If most Americans believed that the earth was flat, that wouldn't change its shape.

Gallup Poll.

Actually, evolution is gaining. Most Americans now believe that humans evolved from other animals, and those who take a purely naturalistic view are the only sector with a significant increase.

The U.K. is about the European average in beliefs related to evolution. Here, the pure naturalists are the largest faction, although still a minority. Evolution as a whole wins out easily in every region. Hold your cursor over the map regions.

Belief map U.K.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 01-16-2011 4:35 PM Eye-Squared-R has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 03-20-2011 3:03 PM bluegenes has responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 90 of 196 (609481)
03-20-2011 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Eye-Squared-R
03-20-2011 3:03 PM


Re: Gallup Poll Reveals Only 16% Believe Unguided neo-Darwinism Works
Where did you get the post title from? I don't remember the phrase "neo-Darwinism" in the poll. The 16% believe in naturalistic evolution, but no specific theory was mentioned.

Eye-Squared-R writes:

Correct. But virtually all Americans do not believe the Earth is flat - because they’ve been exposed to the abundant evidence.

That is precisely the opportunity presented in this thread: to both present and defend the evidence for neo-Darwinism in a publishable venue that could help educate the masses.

Is it?

How would it help when masses of published work by biologists is already available to them? And have you not yet understood that comments about people being ignorant, stupid or delusional relate to the denial of the fact of evolution, not to any particular explanatory theory? They apply largely to the 40% in the Gallup poll who believe that humans were created as we are.

E-S-R writes:

According to your Gallup reference, only 16% believe human DNA developed without God's involvement. This poll indicates a larger opportunity for neo-Darwinian evolutionists to educate Americans than I had imagined. If there are 308 million people in the US, the 84% “unbelievers” or skeptics in neo-Darwinism (unguided Random Mutations and Natural Selection) that you could help educate would amount to over 258 million people!

How? What information can I make available to religious Americans that is not already easily available to them if they were interested in it? And what makes you think that evidence ever had anything to do with their religious beliefs? The 84% are believing what 90% believed a few decades ago, what more than 90% would have probably believed 100 years ago, and what nearly 100% would have believed 200 years ago. The origin of the belief is cultural, it is passed down generations, and isn't built on evidence.

E-S-R writes:

The point is the vast majority of Americans are evidently either not aware of the evidence or not persuaded by the evidence for neo-Darwinism (purely naturalistic view) as they are the evidence for a spherical Earth.

Would you please help educate these folks by committing to present and defend the evidence in a broad publishable format Bluegenes?

Again, if you think that a lack of published information on biology is the reason 84% of Americans believe a god was involved in their creation, you are wrong. They are inclined to believe what they heard repeatedly as little children. Kids brought up in traditional non-theistic religions don't believe in creator gods, and kids brought up to believe that the Koran is the word of god are much more likely to believe that than you or I.

The purely naturalistic view is more prevalent in Europe because of a significantly greater decline in religious belief, and lower general intensity of the indoctrination of children with religious belief, not because of a difference in the scientific information available.

Projects like the one you claim to be proposing make no difference. The 16% of naturalists will grow over time, but not rapidly, and there are many complex factors involved in cultural change.

I mentioned the Gallup poll because you said this:

E-S-R writes:

According to most polls of American beliefs, evolution is losing in the marketplace of ideas as demonstrated by the magnitude of “unbelievers”.

It is, in fact, gaining from the point of virtual zero it would have had 150 years ago, and the magnitude of unbelievers (measured by percentage) is on an inevitable decline. It's a pity they don't break down the figures by age group. Then you could see which direction things are going.

E-R-S writes:

And if you are unable to make a firm commitment to a professional publishable debate in any of the disciplines listed in prior posts, please share with us your reason for declining - if you don’t mind.

Reason? Apart from having no evidence that an anonymous poster on the Internet is actually arranging such a thing? Here's a reason.

If I'm debating with people who are proposing non-living intelligent beings as a mechanism in biology, I consider the debate to be won if they cannot establish the existence of non-living intelligent beings as a genre. That has never been done. I can demonstrate the existence of my mechanisms, like chemical reactions, mutation, natural selection, drift etc., and I expect the same standards of the opposition.

So, if you find a creationist who can actually demonstrate the existence of the genre (non-living intelligent beings) then I will happily participate in a debate as to whether or not one or more such beings is doing or has done some designing in the biosphere and is responsible for life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 03-20-2011 3:03 PM Eye-Squared-R has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 6:23 PM bluegenes has responded
 Message 123 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 11-01-2011 1:37 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 92 of 196 (609486)
03-20-2011 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
03-20-2011 6:23 PM


Re: Gallup Poll Reveals Only 16% Believe Unguided neo-Darwinism Works
jar writes:

I found one quote from ESR interesting.

quote:
According to most polls of American beliefs, evolution is losing in the marketplace of ideas as demonstrated by the magnitude of “unbelievers”.

Why would anyone care about some marketplace of ideas? Such polls have nothing to do with anything other than showing that in particular, people in the US are ignorant.

Well, that point's been made. That if people believe in a flat earth, it doesn't get any flatter. However, I was explaining that pretty much no-one believed they descended from other animals 150 years ago, so that ESR's phrasing, with the word "losing" was misleading even when applied to mass public opinion, because evolution in general has always been gaining in public acceptance since the mid-nineteenth century (albeit slowly), and even the purely naturalistic view of it is gaining.

It's inevitable. History doesn't go backwards.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 6:23 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 178 of 196 (663883)
05-27-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Eye-Squared-R
05-27-2012 7:13 AM


Re: General Response: Integrity – Can anyone address the topic?
Eye-Squared-R writes:

Your potential creationist opponent(s) are committed and available to begin the process whenever a qualified neo-Darwin debate team is assimilated and committed. But the first step is to gain firm commitments for the best possible neo-Darwin debate team that includes qualified evolutionists (Ph. D. in the natural or applied sciences for publishable credentials).

Will the creationist opponent(s) have a Ph.D. in supernaturalism? Will they be able to establish the existence of the mechanism by which they want to explain the origin of species? I ask because, if they cannot demonstrate the existence of one or more supernatural beings, the debate is won by naturalists. Physical processes are demonstrably real.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Eye-Squared-R, posted 05-27-2012 7:13 AM Eye-Squared-R has not yet responded

  
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