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Author Topic:   Libya
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 33 (609488)
03-20-2011 7:33 PM


It is so short-sighted. If the Libyans don't see themselves as being responsible for the taking of power they won't have a sense of ownership for whatever comes out of this.
Why do we keep making the same stupid mistakes? You have to start to wonder if the consipracy theorists aren't right and it is the weapons manufacturers that are calling the shots. (Probably not true but I can sure see why many think it is.)

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 33 (609572)
03-21-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
03-21-2011 7:49 AM


Percy writes:
Thanks for posting this, it helps to see the specific terms of the resolution, which appears to be an excellent example of the age old adage, "Be careful what you ask for." The Arab League asked for a no-fly zone and got a UN resolution authorizing "all necessary means to protect civilians" with only a "foreign occupation force" being off-limits, so I assume any ground-based special-ops would be within the guidelines of the resolution.
What is the difference between a rebel and a civilian? It sounds like if Gadhafi uses force against the rebels, the coalition is authorized under the term of the UN resolution to take action. This is like breaking a mirror, I think we've just guaranteed ourselves seven more years of Arab hatred.
I think that is right on the money. In addition if this is viewed by the Arabs, and particularly the people of Syria, as a victory for and by the west, rather than a victory for the people of Syria then IMHO, in the medium and long term it will cause considerable damage to the hopes and aspirations of others in that part of the world that desire freedom from oppresive regimes. It will also of course, as you point out, damage even further for years to come the position of western countries in that part of the world.
I just don't know what they're thinking unless, and I sure hope I'm wrong, that there are those with a vested interest in this type of conflict that are driving it.
AbE: In my view the establishment of a no-fly zone on its own would have been a good thing, but as you said Percy they have gone well beyond that.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 03-21-2011 7:49 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 03-22-2011 4:51 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 17 of 33 (609735)
03-22-2011 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taq
03-22-2011 4:51 PM


Taq writes:
What would a "no-fly zone" only policy look like to the libyans on the ground, and by extension to the rest of the arab world? Do NATO and American planes fly over cities doing nothing as the Libyan army slaughters dissidents by the thousands? Is the excuse, "Well, they weren't in planes so there was nothing we could do," going to carry any weight?
I have considerable sympathy with that argument but I believe that the west has to take the long term view. The Arab League supported the west establishing a no-fly zone which made it a reasonable idea to intervene to that degree.
Once we go further than that the west can then be seen as picking winners and losers in the conflict and it will be construed as more western intervention in Arab affairs. If the rebels are victorious they will need to have credibility in order to establish government and build international relationships. If they are seen as being beholding to the west I think that this will be very difficult. (That is assuming that we in the west don't wind up getting involved politically which would make a bad situation worse IMHO). AS I said earlier it is important that this be viewed as an internal matter and not one that is being dictated by the west.
Right now there are a number of countries in that part of the world whose governments are being seriously tested. By over stepping the mark in Syria we might cause other rebel groups to assume that we will step in to any similar situation over there. (Also, with what we are doing in Syria I think it is also fair to ask why we weren't in Sudan.)
In all fairness though I freely admit to being anything but an expert on Middle Eastern affairs but that is how it appears to me.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 03-22-2011 4:51 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-22-2011 6:46 PM GDR has replied
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 03-23-2011 11:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 33 (609747)
03-22-2011 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-22-2011 6:46 PM


Re: Syria?
jar writes:
You keep saying Syria. What intervention by the US in Syria are you talking about?
Didn't I just say that I wasn't an expert in MIddle Eastern affairs? Don't know where that came from. Obviously I meant Libya.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 23 of 33 (609821)
03-23-2011 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
03-23-2011 11:33 AM


Taq writes:
All very true. However, I don't think the current escalated intervention can be construed as picking a winner. We are picking a loser but one who everyone else in the arab world thinks is a loser. If the West only concerns itself with preventing large scale violence and keeps out of the political process I think they will come out looking fine.
The news today seems to indicate that Arab support is actually increasing so you may well be right. Let's just hope and pray that you are.
Taq writes:
Or why we haven't stepped in to stop genocide throughout Africa.
I agree but how do you do it. Like they found out yesterday in rescuing the downed crew from that F15 you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys from the air, and if you put in ground troops it becomes another quagmire like Somalia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 03-23-2011 11:33 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 03-23-2011 12:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 25 of 33 (609824)
03-23-2011 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taq
03-23-2011 12:36 PM


Actually the rebels have more equipment than you might think.
Rebel tanks and even a helicopter deployed
There is never an easy answer when countries involve themselves in the domestic issues of other countries. It seems though in this case so far so good. With all the weaponry being employed though, there is a lot of opportunity for things to go south in a hurry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 03-23-2011 12:36 PM Taq has not replied

  
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