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Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
taq writes:
No, it doesn't. Your lack of scientific knowledge is causing you to read things into the conclusions that aren't there. The rate and timing of mutations is non-random, but the mutations themselves are still random with respect to fitness. /wright writes:
A multitude of random mechanisms result in hypermutation under conditions of environmental stress and clearly contribute to the variability essential to evolution. However, since most mutations are deleterious, random mechanisms that increase mutation rates also result in genomewide DNA damage. Among microorganisms, from phage to fungi, the overall mutation rate per genome is remarkably constant (within 2.5-fold), presumably reflecting an obligatory, delicate balance between the need for variation and the need to avoid general genetic damage (24, 45, 57). Thus, mutator strains are not selected in nature but remain at 1 to 2% of the population (35, 52); under certain adverse conditions, they flourish for short periods but are then selected against, apparently because of widespread deleterious effects intrinsic to genomewide hypermutation. In contrast, hypermutation that is the consequence of starvation-induced derepression and transcriptional activation represents a very rapid and specific response to each adverse circumstance. The extent to which normal background mutations in nature are due to derepression mechanisms is difficult to estimate, but the location of most C-to-T transitions on the nontranscribed strand suggest that it may be significant. Regardless, a mechanism that limits an increase in mutation rates to genes that must mutate in order to overcome prevailing conditions of stress would surely be beneficial and therefore selected during evolution. The last sentence in this quote from Wrights paper on p.7 seem to be saying that these mutations that are non-random would surely be beneficial and therefor selected. I read that as saying that the mutations would be SELECTED, mutations that are non-random and beneficial.Am I wrong?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
taq writes: You could actually present the data from experiments. That would be a refreshing change in tactics. You know, do some actual science instead of lawyering. I am not a scientist, how can I present data? I can only read the papers of the scientist who have presented the data in their papers.
shadow writes: I admit that I accept the work of Shapiro, taq writes: How can you accept something that you don't understand? What is this work? Can you please point to the data that Shapiro has produced which demonstrates nonrandom mutations with respect to fitness? No more "I read his conclusions". I want to see you present the data, figures, and tables found in the results section of his papers and show us how these results point to nonrandom mutations with respect to fitness. Shapiro presents the data, I present his findings from the data per his papers.Using your procedure, only scientists could post on this board. There have to be positions presented from the data outside the mere mechanical physical and chemical data. The scientists on this board must be open to causation that flows from the data.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Wounded King writes: So if transcriptionally active/derepressed genes are more liable to mutation then at these early stages that bias would be towards genes associated with early development which are prime candidates for being subject to strong selective pressures due to the sensitivity of early development. Are you agreeing that these are non-random mutations that are beneficial for fitness?
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4172 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
shadow71 writes: There have to be positions presented from the data outside the mere mechanical physical and chemical data. What other kind of data are you going to present to us??? I cant wait too see. You should look up the word data. Data Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster I anxiously await your data.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
shadow71 writes: Wounded King writes: So if transcriptionally active/derepressed genes are more liable to mutation then at these early stages that bias would be towards genes associated with early development which are prime candidates for being subject to strong selective pressures due to the sensitivity of early development. Are you agreeing that these are non-random mutations that are beneficial for fitness? And non-random mutations that are not beneficial for fitness. Sorry charlie but the two things are totally separate. Fitness is only determined AFTER the fact. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Can you see that there is no decision being made, and no sentient process whatsoever, by the grass seed as to which direction it will grow in? It wouldn't be too terribly inaccurate to say that the plant "senses" the direction of gravity so that the direction of growth could be "determined". Although, that could be interpreted to be some decision making process by the plant even though there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it: The paper below which can be accessed at The ‘root-brain’ hypothesis of Charles and Francis Darwin - PMC seem to be going in the same direction as Shapiro et. al in re communciation properties, even in plants. The ‘root-brain’ hypothesis of Charles and Francis DarwinRevival after more than 125 years Frantiek Baluka,1 Stefano Mancuso,2 Dieter Volkmann,1 and Peter W Barlow3 1IZMB; University of Bonn, Bonn, Germany 2LINV; Department of Horticulture; University of Firenze, Sesto Fiorentino (FI), Italy 3School of Biological Sciences; University of Bristol, Bristol, UK Corresponding author. Correspondence to: Frantiek Baluka; Email: baluska@uni-bonn.deReceived November 9, 2009; Accepted November 10, 2009. Other Sections▼ AbstractIntroductionCharles and Francis Darwin and their Revolutionary BiologyThe Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRecent Support for the Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRoot Tropisms: From Sensory Systems to Motoric SystemsEscape Tropism of Illuminated Roots: Stress Situation for the Whole SeedlingNeurobiological View of the Plant Body Solves the Recently Introduced ‘Schizophrenic’ Apical-Basal DichotomyBose’s Unity of Life and Ockham’s Razor UpdatedOutlook: Complex Social Life of Plant RootsReferencesAbstractThis year celebrates the 200th aniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin, best known for his theory of evolution summarized in On the Origin of Species. Less well known is that, in the second half of his life, Darwin’s major scientific focus turned towards plants. He wrote several books on plants, the next-to-last of which, The Power of Movement of Plants, published together with his son Francis, opened plants to a new view. Here we amplify the final sentence of this book in which the Darwins proposed that: It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the tip of the radicle thus endowed [with sensitivity] and having the power of directing the movements of the adjoining parts, acts like the brain of one of the lower animals; the brain being seated within the anterior end of the body, receiving impressions from the sense-organs, and directing the several movements. This sentence conveys two important messages: first, that the root apex may be considered to be a ‘brain-like’ organ endowed with a sensitivity which controls its navigation through soil; second, that the root apex represents the anterior end of the plant body. In this article, we discuss both these statements.Key words: auxin, cognition, plant neurobiology, plant tropisms, roots, sensory biology, signaling Other Sections▼ AbstractIntroductionCharles and Francis Darwin and their Revolutionary BiologyThe Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRecent Support for the Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRoot Tropisms: From Sensory Systems to Motoric SystemsEscape Tropism of Illuminated Roots: Stress Situation for the Whole SeedlingNeurobiological View of the Plant Body Solves the Recently Introduced ‘Schizophrenic’ Apical-Basal DichotomyBose’s Unity of Life and Ockham’s Razor UpdatedOutlook: Complex Social Life of Plant RootsReferencesIntroductionRecent advances in plant molecular biology, cellular biology, electrophysiology and ecology, unmask plants as sensory and communicative organisms, characterized by active, problem-solving behavior.1—6 This new view of plants is considered controversial by several plant scientists.7 At the heart of this problem is a failure to appreciate different living time-scales: plants generally do not move from the spot where they first became rooted, whereas animals are constantly changing their location. Nevertheless, both animals and plants show movements of their organs; but, as mentioned, these take place at greatly different rates. Present day results,8—13 however, are increasingly coming to show that, in contrast with the classical view, plants are definitely not passive automatic organisms. On the contrary, review they possess a sensory-based cognition which leads to behavior, decisions and even displays of prototypic intelligence.4,12 Other Sections▼ AbstractIntroductionCharles and Francis Darwin and their Revolutionary BiologyThe Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRecent Support for the Darwins’ ‘Root-Brain’ HypothesisRoot Tropisms: From Sensory Systems to Motoric SystemsEscape Tropism of Illuminated Roots: Stress Situation for the Whole SeedlingNeurobiological View of the Plant Body Solves the Recently Introduced ‘Schizophrenic’ Apical-Basal DichotomyBose’s Unity of Life and Ockham’s Razor UpdatedOutlook: Complex Social Life of Plant RootsReferencesCharles and Francis Darwin
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It seems you've missed my point. I didn't care to discuss whether or not plants have sentient properties, I was using that as an example to expose the flawed reasoning in your other arguments.
The paper below which can be accessed at The ‘root-brain’ hypothesis of Charles and Francis Darwin - PMC seem to be going in the same direction as Shapiro et. al in re communciation properties, even in plants. How so? What does it say that goes in the same direction?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
Be wary about basing your religious ideas about life on the language of biologists. It's not only that they might not believe in your God, they might not even believe in you. I really don't base by religious ideas on biologists. I have had my religious beliefs for many years and they have continually gotten stronger as my life and experiences have unfolded. What I am saying in this thread is that Shapiro and those in the school of communicative cell discoveries, are reinforcing my religious beliefs.If I am wrong about these biologists, it won't change my religious beliefs. bluegenes writes:
Shapiro is talking about it being directed by natural means, and so is Wright. I think you may be getting a bit over excited by expressions like "natural engineering" which, like "natural selection", has nothing to do with teleology. I understand what Shapiro is saying in "natural genetic engineering" but he nor any scientist is the last word on the cause or initiator of these discoveries. In the end for this subject it all comes down to the Orgin of Life.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
jar writes: On this I'm not upset at all, far more just amused. I find your posts hilarious and readily admit being greatly entertained by them. I'm glad you enjoy them. Perhaps you will also learn something from them.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
shadow71 writes: jar writes: On this I'm not upset at all, far more just amused. I find your posts hilarious and readily admit being greatly entertained by them. I'm glad you enjoy them. Perhaps you will also learn something from them. I have, that you have no idea what science is or how to approach a problem scientifically. You still seem to think the goal is to try to find (or manufacture, or pretend to find) information that supports your position. That is clear. It is also why you are doomed to fail. Science and reality are not like the Law, not related to finding support for a position, but rather looking, searching, spending all possible effort to disprove your position. You have a desired outcome. Thus you have already failed. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Are you agreeing that these are non-random mutations that are beneficial for fitness? No because, as my subsequent post pointed out, I was making it up as I went along. I was trying to devise some hypothetical mechanism that would work in metazoa, specifically mammals, equivalent to the one Wright was describing in bacteria. So since these were my own hypothetical mutations I could make them non-random, to the extent that their transcriptional state made them more likely targets for mutation. As for their beneficial or deleterious state, as Jar suggests it could go either way. Wright's argument was that by increasing the proportion of mutations in genes involved in a particular response you were more likely to generate relevant beneficial mutations, her hypothesis does not suggest that you don't generate a similarly enhanced rate of deleterious mutations but those are selected against so they are not included in the analysis. In my case I was trying to identify a scenario where there could be a similar tight association between transcription, mutation and selective pressure. The only points I could think of were very early embryonic development and possibly in germ cell maturation and development. TTFN, WK
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Peter Member (Idle past 1506 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Do species with longer life-spans become extinct more often than those with shorter life-spans?
I mean become 'evolutionary dead-ends' rather than just that the species disappears. Edited by Peter, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I mean become 'evolutionary dead-ends' rather than just that the species disappears. I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make here. A species that disappears surely is an evolutionary dead end, or do you mean that they evolved into other distinct species, speciation isn't usually considered extinction. Obviously any species that hasn't disappeared isn't yet an evolutionary dead end. Can you give some examples of each class? TTFN, WK
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Peter Member (Idle past 1506 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
e.g. Some dinosaur species are referred to as extinct, but considered ancestral to modern birds and therefore not dead-ends.
My question is: are there more dead-ends amongst species with long life-spans rather than short? Edited by Peter, : I can't spell.
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
I am not a scientist, how can I present data? How can you reach scientific conclusions without data?
I can only read the papers of the scientist who have presented the data in their papers. Then present the data found in those papers and demonstrate how that data supports your interpretation of the authors' conclusions.
Shapiro presents the data, I present his findings from the data per his papers.
You also present your misinterpretation of Shapiro's findings. What I want to see is how the data in those papers supports YOUR interpretations. If we were going to compare this to a court of law, you are only presenting the opinions of the forensic scientists without ever presenting the forensic evidence itself.
Using your procedure, only scientists could post on this board.
Anyone with access to the papers can use my procedure, scientist and non-scientist alike.
There have to be positions presented from the data outside the mere mechanical physical and chemical data. Then we are no longer talking about science.
The scientists on this board must be open to causation that flows from the data. What we should not be open to is misinterpretations of the data, which is exactly what you have been presenting.
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