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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 256 of 760 (611230)
04-06-2011 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by shadow71
04-06-2011 4:24 PM


Re: Just blowing smoke
Is it your position that both Wright and Shapiro are unqualified scientists who do not understand the "Current neo-Darwinian Dogma" and the scientists on this board are all well qualified and infallible?
No, of course not, don't be so silly.
The way that you can tell that that isn't my position is that I never said nor implied any such thing.
If you want to know what my actual position is, you would do well to read my actual posts and see what I actually wrote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by shadow71, posted 04-06-2011 4:24 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 257 of 760 (611232)
04-06-2011 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by shadow71
04-06-2011 4:34 PM


Re: Just blowing smoke
What most on this board are doing is stating WHAT is happening in the cell, i.e. the mechanics . You do not address the WHY and HOW it happens, you just assume it is a Natural process.
It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that could lead someone to produce those two sentences. However, given that you have done so, might I tactfully suggest that participation on these forums might be too difficult for you, and advise you to take up some hobby that is less intellectually taxing?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by shadow71, posted 04-06-2011 4:34 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by shadow71, posted 04-07-2011 7:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 258 of 760 (611235)
04-06-2011 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by shadow71
04-06-2011 5:21 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
Shaprio writes:
The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160]. Activating events include loss of food [18], infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) - just the events that we can infer from the geological and genomic records have happened repeatedly. Episodic activation of natural genetic engineering functions means that alterations to the genome occur in bursts rather than as independent events. Thus, novel adaptations that require changes at multiple locations in the genome can arise within a single generation and can produce progeny expressing all the changes at once. There is no requirement, as in conventional theory, that each individual change be beneficial by itself. The episodic occurrence of natural genetic engineering bursts also makes it very easy to understand the punctuated pattern of the geological record [161]. Moreover, the nature of activating challenges provides a comprehensible link to periodic disruptions in earth history. Geological upheavals that perturb an existing ecology are likely to lead to starvation, alteration of host-parasite relationships and unusual mating events between individuals from depleted populations.
If it was observed that:
1. a large proportion of that generation all had the same rearrangements from independent events,
2. the shared rearrangement were beneficial,
3. the shared rearrangement only happened in response to a specific stimuli,
then I would say that neo-Darwinism needs to be modified.
However, this is not what we see, nor has this been observed by Wright or Shapiro. Instead, we find that beneficial re-arrangements are rare, and of the arrangments that are beneficial they are often different rearrangements. We also see that these rearrangements are in response to very general stimuli, such as starvation. We do not see specific reactions to specific stimuli, such as the specific mutation to produce spectinomycin resistance in response to the presence of spectinomycin.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 259 of 760 (611386)
04-07-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2011 5:43 PM


It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that couRe: Just blowing smoke
Dr. Adequate post;
shadow 71 writes:
What most on this board are doing is stating WHAT is happening in the cell, i.e. the mechanics . You do not address the WHY and HOW it happens, you just assume it is a Natural process.
Dr.Adequate writes:
It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that could lead someone to produce those two sentences. However, given that you have done so, might I tactfully suggest that participation on these forums might be too difficult for you, and advise you to take up some hobby that is less intellectually taxing?
Would you also suggest that the following quote from a scientist suggests that he should take up a hobby that is less intellectually taxing?
This is what I was suggesting in my statement above.
Corrections to chance fluctuations: quantum mind in biological evolution?
Damiani G.
Istituto di Genetica Molecolare / Evolutionary Genetics, CNR, Via Abbiategrasso 207, 27100 Pavia (Italy). damiani@igm.cnr.it
Abstract
According to neo-Darwinian theory, biological evolution is produced by natural selection of random hereditary variations. This assumption stems from the idea of a mechanical and deterministic world based on the laws of classic physics. However, the increased knowledge of relationships between metabolism, epigenetic systems, and editing of nucleic acids suggests the existence of self-organized processes of adaptive evolution in response to environmental stresses. Living organisms are open thermodynamic systems which use entropic decay of external source of electromagnetic energy to increase their internal dynamic order and to generate new genetic and epigenetic information with a high degree of coherency and teleonomic creativity. Sensing, information processing, and decision making of biological systems might be mainly quantum phenomena. Amplification of microscopic quantum events using the long-range correlation of fractal structures, at the borderline between deterministic order and unpredictable chaos, may be used to direct a reproducible transition of the biological systems towards a defined macroscopic state. The discoveries of many natural genetic engineering systems, the ability to choose the most effective solutions, and the emergence of complex forms of consciousness at different levels confirm the importance of mind-action directed processes in biological evolution, as suggested by Alfred Russel Wallace. Although the main Darwinian principles will remain a crucial component of our understanding of evolution, a radical rethinking of the conceptual structure of the neo-Darwinian theory is needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2011 5:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-07-2011 8:40 PM shadow71 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 260 of 760 (611402)
04-07-2011 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by shadow71
04-07-2011 7:26 PM


Re: It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that couRe: Just blowing smoke
Would you also suggest that the following quote from a scientist suggests that he should take up a hobby that is less intellectually taxing?
No. If he is, as you say, a scientist, I'd suggest that he take up a whole different profession, such as chicken-farming.
This is what I was suggesting in my statement above.
No. Just because you're talking nonsense and so is he doesn't mean that you were talking the same nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by shadow71, posted 04-07-2011 7:26 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by shadow71, posted 04-08-2011 1:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 261 of 760 (611522)
04-08-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Dr Adequate
04-07-2011 8:40 PM


Re: It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that couRe: Just blowing smoke
Dr.Adequate writes:
No. If he is, as you say, a scientist, I'd suggest that he take up a whole different profession, such as chicken-farming.
Here is his cv and access to revelant papers.
curriculum - binary theory of everything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-07-2011 8:40 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-08-2011 3:47 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 262 of 760 (611529)
04-08-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2011 5:34 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
"It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the tip of the radicle thus endowed with sensitivity and having the power of directing the movements of the adjoining parts, acts like the brain of one of the lower animals; the brain being seated within the anterior end of the body, receiving impressions from the sense-organs, and directing the several movements.
Do you agree that plants have sensitivity, the power of directing the movements of their adjoinging parts, and that the brain receives impressions from the sense organs and directs their movements is consistent with the current theory?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2011 5:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-08-2011 3:39 PM shadow71 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 263 of 760 (611548)
04-08-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by shadow71
04-08-2011 2:02 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
Do you agree that plants have sensitivity, the power of directing the movements of their adjoinging parts, and that the brain receives impressions from the sense organs and directs their movements is consistent with the current theory?
Yes, of course. That is why I have said so very emphatically.
The question is, do you deny it?
If not, then you must agree that these obvious facts, well known to Darwin himself as well as to all "neo-Darwinists", do not constitute a challenge to orthodoxy but a wholehearted agreement with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by shadow71, posted 04-08-2011 2:02 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by shadow71, posted 04-13-2011 12:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 264 of 760 (611549)
04-08-2011 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by shadow71
04-08-2011 1:45 PM


Re: It is very hard for me to conceive of the mental state that couRe: Just blowing smoke
Here is his cv and access to revelant papers.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
I hope he's good with chickens.

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 Message 261 by shadow71, posted 04-08-2011 1:45 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 265 of 760 (611879)
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Re: LURIA & DELBRUCK random mutation experiment
I have just been reading some papers on "directed mutations" and one very qualified researcher QI Zheng states as follows:
"On a logical difficulty in the directed mutation debate"
QI ZHENG
Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, School of Rural Public Health, Texas A&M Health Science Center, College Station, TX 77843, USA
Summary
This paper calls attention to an overlooked logical difficulty that has impeded the directed mutation debate for over half a century. It further suggests that the random mutation hypothesis be regarded at present as a null hypothesis in evolutionary biology.
I know Cairns and others have challenged the Luria & Delbuck experiment, but it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations.
That is an exciting event.

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by AZPaul3, posted 04-11-2011 8:45 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 267 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2011 8:46 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 268 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2011 10:05 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 269 by Wounded King, posted 04-12-2011 5:41 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 270 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-12-2011 8:14 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 271 by Taq, posted 04-12-2011 11:03 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 294 by molbiogirl, posted 04-13-2011 5:54 PM shadow71 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 266 of 760 (611880)
04-11-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by shadow71
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Re: LURIA & DELBRUCK random mutation experiment
it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations.
shadow, do you know what a "null hypothesis" is in science?
BTW, did you spend the $45 to actually read the paper? I didn't have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by shadow71, posted 04-11-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by shadow71, posted 04-13-2011 11:25 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 267 of 760 (611881)
04-11-2011 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by shadow71
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Creationist research
shadow71 writes:
I have just been reading some papers on "directed mutations" and one very qualified researcher QI Zheng states as follows:
"On a logical difficulty in the directed mutation debate"
QI ZHENG
Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, School of Rural Public Health, Texas A&M Health Science Center, College Station, TX 77843, USA
Summary
This paper calls attention to an overlooked logical difficulty that has impeded the directed mutation debate for over half a century. It further suggests that the random mutation hypothesis be regarded at present as a null hypothesis in evolutionary biology.
I know Cairns and others have challenged the Luria & Delbuck experiment, but it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations.
That is an exciting event.
When will you fundies ever learn to cite your sources???!!
Given the lack of a source I googled the "Research Interests" of this author. They are as follows:
Ca2+ is a key element in cell signaling mechanism. As an ion, it contributes to the cell membrane potential. As a messenger, it interacts with tens of intracellular effector proteins, including many enzymes, and regulates diversified cellular functions: contraction, secretion, motility, gene expression, proliferation, differentiation, and apoptosis etc.
Resting intracellular free calcium level ([Ca2+]i) is usually low (100 nM), considered as a zero / silent state. Upon stimulations, [Ca2+]i can be raised up either by Ca2+ influx across the plasma-membrane or by Ca2+ release from intracellular store (the ER and related organelles) through variety of calcium channels. For example, store-operated Ca2+ channels (SOC) exist in numerous cell types, serving as the main source for Ca2+ entry in most non-excitable cells. Regulated activity of SOC channels is essential to the immune response and may play an important role in the cardiovascular system.
I am interested in the Ca2+ signaling transduction network. My goal is to discover and understand the missing pieces of this big puzzle, using techniques of molecular biology, biochemistry, and genetics. Currently I am focusing on the structures and functions of two newly identified protein components of SOC channels: Stim1 (the ER Ca2+ sensor for SOC activation) and Orai1 (the pore-forming subunit of SOC channels), which are both potential drug targets to treat autoimmune disorders and prevent organ transplant rejection.
Where in all of this do you see support for creationism or ID? I suspect the author would be aghast at the uses to which creationists are putting his research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by shadow71, posted 04-11-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 760 (611882)
04-11-2011 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by shadow71
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Re: LURIA & DELBRUCK random mutation experiment
shadow71 writes:
I know Cairns and others have challenged the Luria & Delbuck experiment, but it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations.
I could not find a free copy of the paper you cited, but my impression from reading another of Zheng's papers is that Zheng is skeptical of the evidence presented for directed mutations.
Here is an excerpt from his paper "Mathematical Issues Arising From the Directed Mutation Controversy"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...s/PMC1462533/pdf/12750347.pdf
quote:
This article does not attempt to refute the directed mutation hypothesis. However, from a mathematical point of view, this article suggests that some of the evidence accumulated to date to support the directed mutation hypothesis is weaker than was originally thought and may be invalid. In summary, we have offered several conjectures to explain some of the evidence.
As AZPaul3 has pointed out, null hypothesis does not mean what you appear to think it means. I highly doubt that you have actually read anything more than the summary of the Zheng's paper, and you've misinterpreted even that.
shadow71 writes:
This is an exciting event.
What event might that be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by shadow71, posted 04-11-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by shadow71, posted 04-13-2011 11:40 AM NoNukes has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 269 of 760 (611917)
04-12-2011 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by shadow71
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Re: LURIA & DELBRUCK random mutation experiment
Just to clarify the point several people have made.
Wikipedia writes:
The null hypothesis typically corresponds to a general or default position.
In other words Zheng is saying, far from our having no 'proof' of random mutations, that random mutation should be considered the default assumption.
He is at pains to emphasise however that the fact that we observed results consistent with random mutation in a particular experiment or set of experiments does not preclude the existence of 'directed' mutation in some cases.
His conclusion is that the fluctuation test may be an insufficient method either to prove that, in the case of the Luria-Delbruck experiment, "All phage-resistant bacteria in nature resulted from mutations that occurred independently of stimulation of the phage." or that "Some of the observed mutants were due to mutations caused by stimulation of the phage."
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by shadow71, posted 04-11-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 270 of 760 (611925)
04-12-2011 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by shadow71
04-11-2011 8:19 PM


Re: LURIA & DELBRUCK random mutation experiment
I know Cairns and others have challenged the Luria & Delbuck experiment, but it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations.
Please quote him saying so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by shadow71, posted 04-11-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by shadow71, posted 04-13-2011 11:47 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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